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ASHLEIGH GILLON
Mike Kelly, your background, of course, is in the military. Are you sympathetic to the views we’ve heard coming from within the ADF that the Minister went over the top when he sent Commodore Bruce Kafer on leave?
MIKE KELLY
Well we haven’t actually been hearing that coming from the ADF. I know, of course, today that we will be deeply saddened across the board – all of the members who are in uniform and, of course, those who wore the uniform. These things happen from time to time, but this is an organisation where you sign up to basic values – a commitment to excellent. You understand that you’re out there to achieve a higher standard than would be expected of normal citizens and that you have to provide leadership and show respect to the uniforms. This will be an audit of where we’re at within Defence. Great progress has been made, but I’d like to send one major message to the men and women in uniform, that this is not a question of tarring everyone with the same brush. We know that our men and women do a fantastic job for this country. Just a few months ago they were out there risking their lives, shoulder-to-shoulder with the community in disaster relief efforts and risking their lives in Afghanistan. So we understand they do a magnificent job, but we are always looking to see where we can improve in this organisation and deal with issues as they arise.
ASHLEIGH GILLONSo, Mike Kelly, just to confirm, you one hundred percent back Stephen Smith in his decision to get Bruce Kafer to go on leave?
MIKE KELLYWell the whole of the CDF, service chiefs, defence command are behind this issue of reviewing what’s going on in the defence force to make sure we have the sort of organisation that the Australian people can be proud of. The measures that have been taken have been in full concurrence with the CDF. People should recall, the CDF is the bloke who stood up to the Howard Government in the wake of the ‘children overboard’ affair, so he’s a man of great integrity and honesty who’s been a great servant to this nation who would put his views strongly if he felt that way. So he has been straightforward and honest about his dealings with the Minister on this and people should have no reason to doubt him.
ASHLEIGH GILLONScott Ryan, your colleague Nick Minchin has been strong in his defence of Bruce Kafer, do you believe that the Minister has acted appropriately by standing the Commodore aside?
SCOTT RYANWell as I understand it, it was the Vice Chief of the ADF that did that. I think, importantly, we have to let these inquiries – the half dozen of them – run their course, because everyone was appalled at the content of the allegations that have been aired over the last few days. More importantly, as well as getting the rules and the process right, what we do need to do is establish a culture whereby peer pressure reinforces good behaviour. I agree with some of the comments that Mike Kelly made there, that we also need to ensure that while there may be a few bad eggs, and those bad eggs need to be rooted out. We do not want to tar the good work of the many thousands of people in uniform with the bad brush of a few.
ASHLEIGH GILLONNobody does want to do that, but still the issue is whether or not this is a widespread cultural problem. Mike Kelly, from your comments before, are you saying that you don’t think it is?
MIKE KELLYWell no-one’s making that allegation in the government. We’re saying we’re going to have an inquiry…
ASHLEIGH GILLONWhy do we need six inquiries then, if this isn’t a widespread problem?
MIKE KELLYWell these are inquiries into various different issues. They’re issues of how we can progress the advancement of women in the civil public service, how we address the issue in the uniformed services, issues to do with the management of complaints and dealing with the civil authorities in Defence, so there are various different aspects to this that we need to look at to see where we’re at now and how we can improve the system.
ASHLEIGH GILLONScott, these are problems, aren’t they, that were around under the Howard Government? We know that there has been a fraught relationship historically between Defence Ministers and the Department. Do you think that Stephen Smith has been right to tackle this head-on, that he has handled this in the way that your side of politics would as well?
SCOTT RYANWell I think when it comes to the treatment of our people in uniform, there is general wish to maintain as much bipartisanship as possible. I think the Minister was correct to call the inquiries, and we have a full range of those to look at the processes in this particular case, as well as, more broadly, the cultural issues. I think the most important thing is to get the rules right and the process right, but also to seek to create a culture where this sort of behaviour is not just unacceptable to the powers that be, but also not acceptable amongst the peers within the ADF so that it doesn’t happen again.
ASHLEIGH GILLONMike, from your experience, do you think that there is a sense within the ADF that the Minister can be dismissed, that they’re instead responsible to the Governor-General and not the government of the day? Is that a sense that you got from your time in the military?
MIKE KELLYNot at all. As part of the training of the Australian Defence Force, they learn rigorously their role in a democracy and we certainly take that mission, in terms of advocating that role in the broader region and in defence forces internationally, very seriously too in our engagements and constructive engagements with other militaries. So it’s deeply embedded in the Defence culture that we operate within a democracy. There are chains of commands associated with that, and principles, and the ADF adheres to that overwhelmingly. So there’ll be issues, of course, where people will be saddened by circumstances that happen, but this is a defence force that’s committed to achieving excellence. They understand that they occupy a leadership role in this society, as well, in terms of setting the mark. This incident, of course, has highlighted that we have some cadets that came into the Academy fresh from the community obviously carrying some attitudes that were unhelpful, and we have to acknowledge that in the broader community we’ve got issues to address here. From Defence’s point of view, we have to set a higher standard.
ASHLEIGH GILLONWell the debate about equality in the Defence Force has now spread to the roles that are available to women. The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, was asked about this a short time ago. She argued that women should be able to participate in all combat roles, have a listen.
JULIA GILLARD (clip)
I have a view that men and women are equal. A few years ago, I heard Peter Cosgrove say that men and women should have an equal right to fight and die for their country. I think he’s right about that and I think it’s a good turn of phrase. It puts the choice very starkly. There are many Australian women who love their country – they want to be in the Defence Force. Of course, physical capability and intellectual capability has to be judged for every job, but if a woman has the physical capability and intellectual capability to do a particular job, then I do not believe it should be denied her on the basis of gender.ASHLEIGH GILLONScott, do you agree with that? Do you think women should be allowed to have a go at every job available in the ADF if, of course, they’re physically up to it?
SCOTT RYANWell Ashleigh, I think that we can learn from a number of our allies on this. I’ve had some time in Israel. The Israeli Defence Force has sadly and tragically had too much to do in the last 50 to 60 years having been in active service quite often. I think virtually all ranges of combat roles are open to women in the Israeli Defence Force. The only question the Coalition has raised about the announcement of this by the Minster yesterday is why it was announced yesterday. I think this is a serious policy issue that can be considered separately from investigating the culture and the allegations that have been made over the last week.
ASHLEIGH GILLONMike Kelly, I will get your take on women in war zones in a second, but on that point of the connection between the Skype affair – was it the natural step to then look at women in combat as a result of that?
MIKE KELLYWell we were already going down this road when I was in the portfolio previously, Greg Combet made announcements in that respect. What is happening now is that we are trying to accelerate that process of analysing how we can get women into those combat roles and what criteria and standards we set. There’s no question that we have to make sure that that equality of opportunity is there. There have been some outstanding female careers in the military and senior service positions such as Air Vice Marshal Julie Hammer, Liz Cosson and, of course, recently we’ve had Alison Creagh doing a great job as well. Julie Hammer commanded an electronic warfare unit as well as being Commandant of ADFA. Technology these days is increasingly eliminating any excuses for not having women in combat roles. There are people now who are thousands of miles from fronts delivering ordinance through remotely-piloted aerial vehicles and the like. Certainly there are a lot of hard jobs that still have to be done on the ground in the Army, but if a woman is physically capable of doing that and has also the competency to do it, then she should be able to do it.
ASHLEIGH GILLONNeil James from the Australian Defence Association doesn’t agree with you. He warned today that putting women into combat units would result in high female casualties. He says it’s simply a physicality thing. On the battlefield, academic gender equality theory just doesn’t apply – the law of physics and biomechanics do. What do you make of that view?
MIKE KELLYIt’s a question of not fudging the standards. We don’t want to set, for example, a quota and then go out of our way to try and achieve that. We have to have very clear criteria that people are judged objectively in attempting to reach those criteria for positions. As Scott said, we’ve seen women in these sorts of combat roles in the IDF. Women also served very actively in organisations like the Viet Cong in Vietnam and in various African contexts as well. It has happened through history and it is possible, so it’s a question of making sure we have the right people for the job. Certainly it’s going to be a challenge to make sure that we define specifically what’s required, but over time, technology is rapidly evening out many of those issues.
(INTERVIEW WITH IMRE SALUZINSKY RE PAULINE HANSON)ASHLEIGH GILLONMike Kelly, do you agree with Imre there, that the voting system is fine as it is, even though Pauline Hanson is suggesting that it isn’t fair and needs an overhaul?
MIKE KELLYAbsolutely. As a resident of New South Wales, I’m greatly relieved that we’re not going to be represented by Pauline Hanson. She has to be the ultimate political carpetbagger. She’s been rejected at the federal level, rejected in Queensland, rejected in New South Wales. I think we’ll probably see her turning up in Liechtenstein next.
ASHLEIGH GILLONSo you don’t think we’ll see her back at the federal election, that she could have some more luck there?
MIKE KELLYI could only hope not. Obviously she’s free to air her views, but we’re also free and have the right and obligation to comment on how we find those views abhorrent. What I’d like to see, of course, is a lot of those good men and women on the Coalition side in federal politics having a word in Tony Abbott’s ear and stop using the One Nation playbook. That would be quite helpful, too.
ASHLEIGH GILLONI’m sure Scott Ryan has got something to say about that. Scott…
SCOTT RYANWell thanks Ashleigh. The thing is, in New South Wales today, the race for the last position in the Legislative Council was between two parties who both have an agenda against immigration with divisive issues in terms of impact on Australia’s foreign policy, both have policies of high tax and anti-free trade. The Liberal Party has comprehensively rejected both of them at a state and federal level, yet the Greens – who beat Pauline Hanson on this occasion – are the ones in a governing alliance with Mike Kelly’s Labor Party. So it’s really up to Mike Kelly to not just do a Pontius Pilate and wash his hands, but thoroughly reject the Greens’ agenda which seems to be driving this government.
ASHLEIGH GILLONYeah. We could keep going back and forth on that one for a while. Scott, on the point that Imre was making about just how tough it would have been for Barry O’Farrell, it is a relief for the Coalition in NSW, isn’t it, that she didn’t get up?
SCOTT RYANMore important than any political impact about this, Ashleigh, is that I think everyone can be happy that Pauline Hanson is not in the Upper House in New South Wales. I certainly am, and I think every Liberal is.
ASHLEIGH GILLONScott Ryan and Mike Kelly, we do appreciate your time on Lunchtime Agenda this afternoon. Thank you.