Senator Scott Ryan debating Graham Perrett MP on ABC News 24, 14 October 2010.
For the video, click here.
E & OE
CHRIS UHLMANN
Graham, we’ve seen some very willing scenes in Griffith today. People are clearly deeply disturbed about the Murray Darling Basin Authority’s guide to its draft plan. Now the government keeps saying, of course, that it is an independent authority, but doesn’t the government have a real political problem on its hands now?
GRAHAM PERRETT
Well look, I grew up in country Queensland, I grew up in St George – one of the towns that’s going to be impacted on by this plan – so I understand how local people are going to be pretty passionate about looking after their local industries and obviously water is gold in these local industries. The government recognises that, but when the basin plan was set up under John Howard, it was decided to put something at arm’s length from government. For some reason, states tend to be a bit parochial and local councils tend to be a bit parochial, so it’s best to have an independent body make some decisions. This was the first step in a very long series towards making some final decisions. So obviously the government needs to manage expectations as well as have a proper, scientific, thorough process in train.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Well Scott Ryan, Graham Perrett makes a very good point, this was set up under the Howard Government, so this was a process that you set in train.
SCOTT RYAN
Chris, you’re right, this flows from the Water Act. Before the last election, Julia Gillard said she would implement the plan of the Murray Darling Basin Authority. I think Graham there mentioned a key point when he talked about managing expectations, because what we’ve got now is a huge amount of uncertainty, and we saw today in Griffith the level of angst in the community and this uncertainty is being created by the government. The minister didn’t go down to hear from the people today, but there was an ad from the government in the Adelaide Advertiser. This government has got its priorities wrong.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Graham Perrett, is that not a real problem? I know that it’s an independent organisation that’s conducting this, but in the end it’s going to have to be a political decision, and there’s white hot anger in the community, shouldn’t the minister be out there?
GRAHAM PERRETT
Well look, the minister has not been quiet, that’s the first point to get out there. But we can’t run around responding to every Henny Penny opposite every time they say the sky’s going to fall in and spread that amongst these communities. Now we know that when it comes to managing water, it’s best to make some cool, scientific, considered decisions, rather than just saying that this is a political decision – there’s a bit of heat there – let’s make a political decision straight away. That’s not the way good Commonwealth Governments operate. We need to understand that decisions have to be made beyond the borders of the Griffith irrigation area or the Deniliquin irrigation area, or the Balonne irrigation area in St George. We’ve got to look at the nation’s best interests – not just local areas.
SCOTT RYAN
Graham, I think it’s a bit unfair to describe 4,000 people in the town of Griffith, where basically every business shut today, as running around crying like Henny Penny ‘the sky’s going to fall in’. Here we have a genuine fear in the community about the impact of this proposed guide, and if you want to talk about a scientific assessment, the government still will not commit to having these numbers referred to the Productivity Commission for a full inquiry so we can understand the economic and social impact of these proposed numbers on the communities that are going to be directly impacted.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Scott, I’ll come to Graham in just a moment, because I know he’s got a point he wants to make, but the Productivity Commission has already looked at water.
SCOTT RYAN
The Productivity Commission has looked at water, but we have some numbers that have come out just under a week ago, and what we could have is a full Productivity Commission inquiry into the economic and social impact of the proposals on the actual communities.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Graham Perrett, you wanted to make a point while Scott was talking.
GRAHAM PERRETT
Well the reality is, we need to have a look at this in terms of the long term future of the viability of these communities, of the river system, the Murray Darling river system, that’s why John Howard said, ‘let’s set it up and take a long term view’ and this is only the start of the process. So it’s obviously right that we have an official inquiry into it, but we need to have – I hate to use the expression – to put a little bit of cold water on this. Whilst I understand communities will always back the economic consideration for that area, we need to just calm down a little bit when looking at what’s going on in these areas.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Scott Ryan, there’s a problem for the Coalition, isn’t there? There are very different views between, say, the Queensland Nationals and the South Australian Liberals on how this should turn out.
SCOTT RYAN
Well Chris, the Coalition is united upon the view that there should be a full assessment of the impact upon the communities so that we have a transparent decision being made. Many of these communities have survived years of drought. They’ve survived the huge uncertainties of the Australian environment, but what they are really worried about now is the uncertainty created by this government.
GRAHAM PERRETT
I was just going to say, he keeps saying ‘this government’, but the reality is this was a bipartisan process set up under John Howard. All of a sudden now, because there’s a little bit of heat in this process – and I’m not minimising the concerns of the people of Deniliquin or Griffith or St George or wherever it will be – because people will be concerned about jobs in their communities. They’re passionate in the bush, I know that. I’ve still got family out there, I know that they’re passionate about it, but let’s just calm down a little bit rather than sort of saying that the sky is falling. That’s not the case.
SCOTT RYAN
Graham, all we’re asking for is a full assessment so that the communities know the impact upon them. You’ve mentioned John Howard three or four times, you’ve only mentioned Tony Burke once. The government seems to be doing everything it can to put distance between itself and the authority. Tony Burke is the minister, he’s the one who’s not going out into these communities.
GRAHAM PERRETT
That’s not the case.
SCOTT RYAN
Well there’s an ad in today’s Adelaide Advertiser.
GRAHAM PERRETT
We’ve just had an announcement from the Gillard government today indicating that we’re going to make sure that the views of these communities are heard and considered properly rather than just, you know…
CHRIS UHLMANN
Well look, gentleman, we’ll move on. Chris Bowen of course has been to East Timor, he’s going to Jakarta, he’s going off to Malaysia, he’s looking into a regional processing centre, are there any signs from your point of view, Graham Perrett, that you’re getting any closer to actually achieving that?
GRAHAM PERRETT
Well look, it was an announcement before the election and we’re taking the logical steps towards achieving that goal. Chris Bowen’s been very favourably received, there’s obviously a little bit of argy bargy when it comes to local political decisions, but you can really see how the Gillard government is going on a process – a realistic process under the eyes of the UN – of looking at the process to stop people getting on boats making those risky decisions that end up with people losing lives. This is a very positive part of the process and I’m looking forward to some support from those opposite for the process.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Support from you, Scott Ryan? You wanted a regional processing centre, you wanted offshore processing, surely this is aimed at achieving that?
SCOTT RYAN
I think process is the key word here. I mean, all we hear from the Labor Party on this is ‘process process process’. The Indonesian foreign ministry today outlined that they have not heard anything about this proposal since the last visit from Stephen Smith. I’m sort of expecting David Bradbury to be up there with Chris Bowen for one of these photo opportunities. The Labor Party is doing everything it can to avoid the most obvious solution. There would be an offshore processing centre now on Nauru if Julia Gillard picked up the phone. It was built by Australian taxpayers, the Nauru government is willing to host it, and we would have that in place right now. Yet what we have is an endless process seeking an outcome of an offshore processing centre with no guarantee it will ever happen.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Graham?
GRAHAM PERRETT
Well this is a much more collaborative approach – engaging with our neighbours, engaging with Malaysia, East Timor, Indonesia – this is the much more logical location, the much more realistic use of resources, rather than the white elephant that Senator Ryan’s colleagues created.
SCOTT RYAN
Well Graham, the Indonesian foreign ministry have said that this will be a people magnet. Surely you have to accept that it’s not just the Coalition now that’s talking about the pull factors created by the Labor Party’s failed border protection policies. You’ve got the Indonesian foreign ministry saying this will be a people magnet. You’re repeating the mistakes of the Oceanic Viking, where you’re promising an outcome to people in three years.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Graham?
GRAHAM PERRETT
As I said, it’s not unusual for politicians to make announcements that are more about local politics rather than the international cooperation that has actually been demonstrated. I’m a lot more realistic about the fact that we’ve got some dialogue, we’ve got a framework, some realistic achievable goals and some goodwill out there in our near neighbours, and I’m looking forward to engaging with them on this process.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Well the question to both of you, we have nearly five thousand people in detention at the moment, and whether or not that’s a good or a bad thing, Scott Ryan, surely you must be concerned by reports from Amnesty International that these people are now engaging in self-harm and there’s more risk of suicide. That is something that we’ve seen before, and you must be at least concerned about that?
SCOTT RYAN
Look Chris, the Coalition and I personally do not want to see this many people in detention, and this is why we have said constantly that we need to have fewer people in detention. The way to do that is to have fewer people making the dangerous journey to Australia and having fewer unlawful arrivals.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Sure, but given we have these people here at the moment, do we not need to now look at some other options about perhaps having some of them in the community and to try and look at some sort of bipartisan position on that?
SCOTT RYAN
[Inaudible]CHRIS UHLMANN
Graham Perrett?
GRAHAM PERRETT
Well look, when it comes to bipartisan I really don’t think Tony Abbott can even spell it. He has indicated clearly that he’s just going to throw that out and just go with the old boxer adage of come out swinging on everything. Now, we need to just calm down when it comes to looking at illegal arrivals and let’s look at what’s happened in the past. The reality is that whenever there’s problems in the world, people tend to flee from those problems. That’s the reality, and that’s what we’re facing at the moment – problems in Sri Lanka, some problems in Afghanistan, particularly for Hazari people – so we’re addressing some of those where we can in terms of the UN, we’ve got a realistic, humane approach to them. Obviously it’d be great to see no children in our detention centres – I don’t think that’s really the way to treat children – but we’re processing people as quickly as possible, as humanely as possible, and with someone representing a very multicultural electorate, I know that there is capacity in Australia to take as many people as possible that come through the proper processes.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Alright, Scott Ryan, on another matter and something where there are both good and bad things, the dollar might reach parity sometime in the not-too-distant future. Good if you’re heading overseas to the United States, bad if you happen to be an exporter.
SCOTT RYAN
The floating dollar – I recall ten years ago it was below fifty cents – it does have upsides and downsides for exporters and importers. What I think is important to remember is that if Treasury’s advice to the government was that the government’s fiscal policies and spending approach with all the waste and all the increases in spending was putting extra pressure on interest rates and the dollar. The dollar and interest rates are higher than they need to be, so for all those that are concerned about its increase in value, they should look at this government’s fiscal policies.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Graham?
GRAHAM PERRETT
Well, you’re drawing a bit of a long bow there, Senator Ryan.
SCOTT RYAN
Treasury said it, Graham.
GRAHAM PERRETT
The reality is the Australian economy is one of the healthiest economies in the world. Now that is a good thing on some levels, but obviously it brings some challenges as well. Particularly as a Queenslander where tourism is such a big part of our industry, and the reality is a lot of people are now buying tickets for Europe or the United States rather than for Cairns or getting on planes to come here from the US or from Europe. That’s very bad in places like Queensland that have tourism. So it does bring some particular challenges, hopefully with the good rains and the good wheat crops there will be some benefits there with our agricultural sector, but obviously it does bring some particular challenges, and the bad thing is seeing a lot of our money going overseas being spent in the shops of Europe and the United States.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Do you really think, Scott Ryan, that the government adjusting some of its spending is going to make that much difference to the dollar at the moment? Isn’t it due more to the weakness that we’re seeing in the United States’ dollar?
SCOTT RYAN
Well Chris, the value of the dollar is obviously dependent on many things. The point I was making was that Treasury’s advice to the government was that its own policies were keeping interest rates and the dollar higher than they needed to be. As to the exact proportion, I can’t comment, but that’s Treasury’s advice to the government. If Graham’s right and the economy is one of the strongest in the world, then he should explain to the Australian people why they’re still borrowing one hundred million dollars a day to fund their deficit.
CHRIS UHLMANN
Alright gentlemen, we’re going to have to leave it there. Thank you both.