DAVID SPEERS
Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister celebrates her 50th birthday – she may well be wishing for a turn around in her political fortunes. But Labor’s problems have only continued this week with more boats arriving, more miserable polls and a gathering storm over poker machine reform. But there are some hopes of green shoots for Labor. On the Liberal side we’ve seen, well, Tony Abbott’s continued anti carbon tax crusades gaining less and less attention and growing restlessness in his ranks over his position on industrial relations. Joining us this week to look at the state of play, Labor Parliamentary Secretary, Mike Kelly, Former NSW Liberal Leader Kerry Chikarovski, Peter Lewis, a pollster with Essential Media Communications and Liberal Senator and Shadow Parliamentary Secretary Scott Ryan. Welcome to you all. Lets start with poker machines, which was, I guess, the big issue at the start of the week. The AFL made clear they’re not joining any formal campaign against the poker machine reforms the Government is planning to introduce; but it doesn’t like them. Nor clearly does the NRL and the number of football heavy weights; from Eddie McGuire down. Mike Kelly, we know your position within Labor is one of some concern over what the Government is doing here. Explain to us what you are and aren’t comfortable with.
MIKE KELLY
Well we all know that there is a significant issue in our community in relation to problem gambling. And obviously this is different in different parts of the country. And this is I think the central message that I’ve been trying to communicate as the local member for Eden-Monaro; the rural and regional areas have different dynamics, different considerations
DAVID SPEERS
What, you don’t have problem gamblers?
Well you know the thing is you have people who are at risk but they’re easily managed in that context because if you take a small town, everybody knows each other in that small town, so, you walk into the club, everyone knows if you are an at risk person. I would take for example Obrien’s pub in Narooma. They only have 15 machines, he has a list of people he knows are at risk. And then of course the staff are trained to identify that and intervene. So of my 97 pubs and clubs, 56 of them have 15 machines or less, and most of my clubs are not for profit.
DAVID SPEERS
So, bottom line, you don’t want to see mandatory precommitment technology forced on these clubs?
MIKE KELLY
Well what I want to see is a trial that actually gives us some data, some information upon which we can make an informed decision. And certainly, I’ve been advocating strongly in caucus and I have to really praise Jenny Macklin who’s always had her door open, always listened to my concerns and we’ve seen some of those concerns already reflected in adaptations to the proposal so…
DAVID SPEERS
However Jenny Macklin this week made it clear that yes, there will be a trial, but the Government is already locked in to mandatory precommitment technology. The trial isn’t going to determine whether or not you do this, its simply going to iron out a few bugs in the system.
MIKE KELLY
Well, we’ll see what emerges from the trial in terms particularly what the costs are that are associated with this and how effective it is and what other measures might be also useful.
DAVID SPEERS
But just to be clear, you’re saying this trial should determine whether you end up with mandatory precommitment technology in your pubs and clubs.
MIKE KELLY
Well what I want to see is the considerations, the special circumstances of my region, rural and regional areas taken into account with whatever framework is ultimately developed. Because at the end of the day, I have to make sure that the pubs and clubs in my region remain viable, that perform and fulfil a very important function in my communities. And I think we can accommodate that difference, that sort of, unique circumstance within an overall framework. Its not a one size fits all solution to this problem.
DAVID SPEERS
Kerry Chikarovski, how big a problem do you see problem gambling, particularly poker machine problem gambling, it’s a particularly big issue in NSW. Can more be done about this?
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Look I have no doubt that there is a problem. One of the most distressing parts of my political career was actually going and wandering around Sydney and talking to the homeless people. And people often think that homeless people are homeless because they have a drug and alcohol problems. And that is often true, but in many instances they have a gambling problem as well. And so they end up on the street because you know they go off and they do blow all their pension cheques or whatever in one day. My concern about the approach of this particular approach is that if you actually talk to those people, they’ll say that they have a problem with gambling. And if they’re not gambling in the poker machines, they’ll be gambling elsewhere. My whole problem with this precommitment idea is that your’e actually trying to say to someone whose got an addiction, its ok to have a little bit of an addiction. And I just don’t get that. I don’t get that what you’re going to do is try and persuade people who we are acknowledging end up blowing everything, that they can go and do it. It might take them long, because it might take…but there’s still…
DAVID SPEERS
But there’s a big difference in losing $100 and losing, you know…$1,000.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Yeah but if you…you might lose $100 today, and $100 tomorrow and eventually you’re going to lose it all eventually. Again. You’re going to lose it again.
DAVID SPEERS
But you’re not going to lose your fortnightly pay cheque. You’re not going to lose your rent and the money that’s there to feed the kids.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
You could probably lose enough that you are going to have a bit of a problem with it.
SCOTT RYAN
And David that depends on the limit that’s set. I mean, the Government hasn’t announced a limit. I mean if people get to set their own limit how does this actually assist a problem gambler?
DAVID SPEERS
Well the theory is, and this is from the Productivity Commission, that if you do set your own limit, you’re not going to set a limit that allows you to blow the whole pay cheque.
SCOTT RYAN
But that logic would say that we wouldn’t have problem gambling at the moment.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
And if you don’t do it there, if you can’t do it at the poker machines – if you’re still saying that gambling is ok for these people, they’ll go to the track. They’ll do it somewhere else.
MIKE KELLY
I think we should recognise here too that the states and territories have a responsibility and what we’re talking about here with problem gambling at its heart is people with a mental health problem who have an addiction. We’ve seen the ACT step forward in developing a proactive counselling and treatment regime. And I would call on NSW in this context, my context, to actually step forward and look at what’s been done in the ACT, and address that aspect. Because I think that’s very important. If you talk to a number of these people who have suffered this issue, it was the counselling and treatment that broke the nexus, and put them on the right track.
DAVID SPEERS
Peter Lewis, is there, is this a fair point, that if you try and put curbs on poker machine gambling, problem gamblers will end up at the track, at the casino; they’ll find some way to feed their habit?
PETER LEWIS
It does though come through to sounding like an excuse to continue to do nothing, so obviously there is a political imperative to move through Wilkie’s pressure having the balance of power. But what’s been interesting from an outside perspective and not a policy perspective is this is actually been quite a popular measure when you run it through the polling with the public.
DAVID SPEERS
But you guys found support for it…
PETER LEWIS
Yeah, you know, it was 60% plus and with Labor voters it was even stronger.
DAVID SPEERS
Was that for mandatory or..?
PETER LEWIS
Yeah it was. It was very carefully worded. Now this happened before the clubs really ramped up their campaign. And I’ve got great sympathy for Mike and other MPs who are really holding, feeling the heat from the clubs. You know, where are the advocates for those poor souls who are actually addicted to gambling; whose lives are ruined. They don’t have an advocacy group. You know the other thing that strikes me is that just watching outside though. The other thing that strikes me is that those opposing it are basically running both sides of the street. They’re saying it’s not going to work and its going to send us broke. Its got to be one or the other. Let’s have a debate about one of the two and if you want to engage…
DAVID SPEERS
That’s a fair point though, isn’t it, Senator. I mean if a club is complaining they’re going to be millions, billions of dollars out of pocket, that is money that comes out of the poker machine gamblers pocket.
SCOTT RYAN
Well it’s also money that comes out of normal people who go and have a flutter who don’t have a problem. The great majority of people…
PETER LEWIS
So why would they use the…
SCOTT RYAN
Because a lot of people are going to have a concern at signing up to a card they have to carry everywhere. This technology allows a central database to know exactly how much you gamble and where you gamble it.
DAVID SPEERS
Isn’t the plan you can still use the one dollar machines without having to sign up to anything?
SCOTT RYAN
We’ve got to ask ourselves a few questions on this policy. Will it work? We know from overseas that there is no evidence to say it does. How much..?
PETER LEWIS
That’s actually challenged though.
SCOTT RYAN
But it’s a contestable point. There’s no evidence to say this will work and stop problem gamblers. The second point, what does it cost? We know its going to cost jobs, particularly in regional areas as Mike just mentioned. We know its going to cost support for community organisations. And thirdly, what burden are we placing upon the great majority of law abiding citizens – those without a problem, in order to maybe take the easy way out and try and solve the legitimate problems of a few. And I think that’s a question that hasn’t been asked here. You’ve mentioned yourself Peter, this is only on the agenda because of Andrew Wilkie. And quite frankly…
PETER LEWIS
That’s not a reason not to deal with it though.
SCOTT RYAN
People are getting sick of Government with a gun at the head.
MIKE KELLY
But I have to say that’s not true. I mean, in that sense in that the Labor Government in 2008 stepped forward to actually refer this issue to the Productivity Commission and obviously now acting on that report. But you know I have to see the advocacy that I and others have been making in relation to rural and regional areas has resulted in adjustments to the proposal so that clubs with 15 machines or less will have an extra 7 years to make the transition. So the question is; is that long enough?
DAVID SPEERS
And are you happy with it as it stands?
MIKE KELLY
Well, I think we need to talk a little bit more about the impact on those small clubs in the transition process
DAVID SPEERS
So, would a longer transition process…?
MIKE KELLY
I think we may need to look at that because I know that those clubs now operate off old second hand machines, some of them are even now one armed bandits and it will take them a long time through that hand-me-down process to…
DAVID SPEERS
How long do you think? What are they telling you?
MIKE KELLY
Well, you know, it’ll certainly take longer than seven years for a lot of those small clubs
DAVID SPEERS
You’re obviously saying never.
MIKE KELLY
Well, no no
(laughs)
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
As long as possible
MIKE KELLY
Well if the big clubs and everybody transition to the new technology machines, then ultimately, they will dribble down to the smaller clubs as they acquired the new machines so all their second hand machines over time. So that’s one issue. The other issue was the ATMs in small towns, so we have a adjustment made there because for example, with Bombala, one of my towns, there was only one ATM in the town and it was inside the RSL. And there was a good reason for that, it was minus eight and snowing outside often in winter. And also, there is that low intensity exception that’s been made too for the one dollar machines. Now, that’s quite a few in my small clubs too so, we just have to now work out also what the sums are correctly and just see whether or not there is an issue of the viability of those small clubs.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
I suppose what concerns me about it all is – I understand the rationale for doing it in some ways. But I actually think it’s copping out. I actually think the greater commitment should be as you have just said a few minutes ago. The greater commitment could be to getting people who are addicted to gambling, in whatever form, back into very good counselling, very good treatment and break that nexus. Because you know if they cant gamble with a poker machine, then what’s to stop them from going online and doing poker machines gambling…
SCOTT RYAN
Exactly.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
You know, doing Pokie gambling online and all that stuff…
MIKE KELLY
And that’s where NSW could really help out other states just step up to the plate
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
So I just think you’re, and look, I understand that Wilkie is very well intentioned about this, I absolutely understand that he’s very well intentioned about it. As is Nick Xenophon. But I’m just concerned that what this is, is a real bandaid to what is a much deeper and much greater problem.
PETER LEWIS
But the question is, why would you not try it?
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Because there’s a lot of money going into this which could possibly go into health measures and counselling measures which I think longer term would have greater benefits.
DAVID SPEERS
Why can’t you do both? I mean the money is coming from the clubs…
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
From the clubs…
DAVID SPEERS
The health spending could come from the Government
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
But we haven’t got the commitment from the health spending.
MIKE KELLY
Well the ACT has led the way on the counselling treatment aspect. They’ve put in place a very good regime where they’ve enlisted the assistance of Mission Australia. And I really think that all the states should have a look at what the ACT’s doing. ACT clubs now seem to be indicating they’re prepared to run a trial as well, so, and its always been a part of our policy to accept trials.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Perhaps that would be a better way to spend the money. Have the clubs help with the counselling rather than spending millions on (inaudible).
SCOTT RYAN
Well, the Victorian Government’s going ahead with a voluntary precommitment scheme and if you have a mandatory commitment scheme and nobody’s going to set a limit, there’s an obvious loophole there as well as the ones that Kerry’s just mentioned; particularly with online gambling and gaming which is increasingly a problem for problem gamblers because of its accessibility on every iPhone, on every iPad. And there are other measures we can take there. But we’ve got to get to this question, at what point do we say, were not to going simply require licenses or permission from the Government for the great and overwhelming majority of people to undertake a legal activity?
PETER LEWIS
Now we’re all becoming these policy experts on something that is really, that the experts have said this is worth trying. And it just seems to me too often you guys just try to go in there and stop things because there is a long term political advantage for you.
SCOTT RYAN
No, I genuinely believe here, that why should I be saying to the great majority of people,’ you’ve got to fill out a form, get a card, that’s going to be kept in a central database to go on any…’
PETER LEWIS
And you reckon that’s going to be that hard? To just say I don’t want to lose more that 200 bucks a night?
SCOTT RYAN
Well why don’t we do the same with alcohol?
MIKE KELLY
We could solve this by having a trial…
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Oh well if its $200 a night they’re going to lose their rent money…
MIKE KELLY
If we have a trial…
DAVID SPEERS
Just finally on this topic, the politics of it. Now even if you know the Labor caucus including people with concerns such as yourself, are in the end on board, there’s the question of getting it through the parliament with the independents that are also necessary. Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott who aren’t too terribly keen at the moment, does anyone think if this doesn’t get through parliament, Andrew Wilkie will really pull the pin and bring down this minority Government? Peter?
PETER LEWIS
It’d be a brave move. This is a man that’s done brave things in the past and this is a crazy parliament at the moment. I wouldn’t like my career to be resting on those decisions but I don’t see it happening
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
I think Andrew Wilkie is a man of great integrity. That’s why he’s pushing this as hard as he is. And I think that he has made it perfectly clear that if he cant get this through and if her cant get it through because the Government is not doing all that it can to get through and that may be the out that Government that Government has tried to do everything they could. But if he doesn’t think that’s happening, I wouldn’t be surprised if he pulled the plug
DAVID SPEERS
But then he ends up with what Tony Abbott who’s not going to do anything on poker machine reform.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Yeah but I mean…
SCOTT RYAN
They’re not doing nothing – I mean I don’t necessarily think letting Victoria try a voluntary precommitment model, let the ACT try something else, is actually doing nothing. I think…
DAVID SPEERS
But you’re a lot further from the position than Labor is, you know. They’re a lot closer to Andrew Wilkie’s demands than you are.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Not all of them are proud…(laughs)
SCOTT RYAN
The political gun at the head seems to have an effect on crystallising the Prime Minister’s thoughts.
DAVID SPEERS
All right, we will shift gear. It’s been one of these weeks where the topics have been somewhat disjointed. So we’ll move through them. So industrial relations, we heard Tony Abbott rule out individual agreements under any industrial relations changes that the Coalition take to the next election. He said I want to work within the current act. Individual flexible agreements promised so much in the past but delivered so little. Scott Ryan, this hasn’t gone down well with a number of your colleagues and in fact there’s a group that have been formed looking at this issue and I guess other issues of true liberal values, called the Society of Modest Members. I should point out that you haven’t leaked me this but someone has. You’re one of the committee members. What’s this society all about
SCOTT RYAN
Oh well I wouldn’t link the two. The Society of Modest Members is actually an old group that was around in the Coalition party for several decades named after Bert Kelly who wrote an article called The Modest Member regularly in The Australian or the Australian Financial Review. And for 20 years before it was popular, he was the lone voice for free trade, for deregulation, against protectionism. The group went into abeyance a few years ago so a few of us thought it would be great to reform it because like Kelly in the 60s and 70s talked about ideas that sort of became policy in the 80s and 90s, its an opportunity to hear from outside experts, to have a chat about issues that aren’t necessarily in the newspaper today, but that are challenges for the country.
DAVID SPEERS
There’s an ideological position in this Society isn’t there?
SCOTT RYAN
Oh, this is named after Bert Kelly because its sort of committed to the principles of free trade…
DAVID SPEERS
And what’s the ideology when it comes to Industrial Relations?
SCOTT RYAN
Well the group doesn’t have any positions or policies at all. It’s literally a discussion forum so its not – it would be incorrect to conflate the two issues. The Society of Modest Members, I think it was reformed towards the end of last year, so it actually goes back before the last election.
DAVID SPEERS
So this has nothing to do with putting pressure on Tony Abbott on industrial relations.
SCOTT RYAN
Nothing at all.
DAVID SPEERS
Well let me ask, what’s your position then on what the leader has been saying, what your leader has been saying about no individual contracts?
SCOTT RYAN
Well Tony said that we won’t have individual statutory contracts and I think the point is that some journalists and commentators have criticised him for effectively keeping his word. He said before the last election that Work Choices was dead, buried, cremated; there will not be individual contracts and he has stuck to that. And that’s something that I don’t think our politicians should be criticised for.
What he’s also said is that this is what the Coalition parties have been talking about for quite a while, we need more flexibility in our workplaces. Heather Ridout – who was such a big supporter of the Fair Work Act is now coming out and saying these individual flexibility agreements in the Act have delivered very little and we need to use the tools there, such as those to actually achieve flexibility and productivity in our workplace.
DAVID SPEERS
Let me ask that question again. Do you support Individual Statutory Agreements?
SCOTT RYAN
No, look, the Liberal party’s position, which I support, is that we take a policy to the election. We stand by it. Were going to take this policy to the election which will be announced before…
DAVID SPEERS
Ok, so you don’t want to see individual contracts come back?
SCOTT RYAN
I don’t think we need individual contracts if we can use the tools in the Act to deliver the flexibility our workplaces need.
DAVID SPEERS
Kerry Chikarovski, is this a concern for true liberals?
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
I don’t think so, I mean, I think the greater concern should be the industrial relations is back on the agenda for the Labor party in many ways because when they came in they were getting rid of you know everything. The world has collapsed under Work Choices so we had to get rid of Work Choices so they brought in the Fair Work Act and that was going to create an industrial relations utopia. Well clearly that’s not the case because there’s a whole lot of people out there at the moment who are complaining about the operation of the existing act and that’s not necessarily Liberals but it is people in business, small and large who are very concerned about the Act. And I think that’s why it’s back on the agenda, not because Tony Abbott or anybody on the Liberal side is actually talking about it in any great measure. But because people are unhappy with what the Labor party has done. If that Act had worked, if it had been all hunky-dory, then it wouldn’t be an election item at all. It wouldn’t be on anybody’s agenda. But there is a level of…all you need to do is do a Google search and see the number of people who are unhappy with the way…
DAVID SPEERS
This is very true isn’t it Michael. I mean, its not just small business worried about the unfair dismissal laws. Its big business, its people like Heather Ridout, it’s the Chamber of Commerce…
MIKE KELLY
It’s the usual suspects but…
DAVID SPEERS
But no…
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
A lot of these people supported you…
DAVID SPEERS
Even the Productivity Commission has said in the retail sector there needs to be some change.
MIKE KELLY
Well look you know any reform obviously over time you continually look at. There’s nothing perfect in this world. But this reform was significant in helping to achieve a national regime and moving forward in terms of creating a base upon which you could get a team approach to the enterprise, productivity through the collective agreements and a whole raft of reasons of why it was necessary. And to create efficiencies in our industrial system nation wide.
DAVID SPEERS
Clearly there’s not enough flexibility to satisfy employers.
MIKE KELLY
It’s fascinating watching the Coalition over this because its like a saucepan on the stove over there. You can hear the lid rattling and the steam pops out every now and then…
PETER LEWIS
And Peter Reith comes in to do the cooking which reminds everybody about what it used to be like…
MIKE KELLY
And you stir it a lot and you turn the heat up a bit, you know, because just below the surface there, there is a boiling tension of wanting to get back in there and bring back Work Choices.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Oh my god…
MIKE KELLY
Why is that?
SCOTT RYAN
You’ll hear about a scare campaign later on…
MIKE KELLY
It’s because there are two ideological positions here. One is the Labor position which is that we achieve productivity and advance our industry through innovation, infrastructure improvement, through skilling our workforce. And then there’s the Liberal ideology that under this conservative regime which says that people should be treated as commodities, as components, as widgets as inputs. Well we believe that you can’t do that. The people part of it has to be dealt with through incentivisation, through skilling and through creating collective agreements that achieve productivity outcomes across the enterprises
DAVID SPEERS
I don’t think anyone’s talking about going back to Work Choices. No ones talking about individual contracts without any notice. It’s…
MIKE KELLY
Of course they won’t. But then we have it in NSW. What do they do? Here it comes. It’s happening. The problem that Scott (inaudible) – They’ve got with Work Choices is it became the Liberal IR philosophy with 1000 pages of legislation. So the dilemma is a dilemma for you guys as it looks more and more likely that you’re going to enter the next election with a huge lead is how much do you throw your chips and do what you actually want to do and tell people what you’re going to do before the election or how much do you hold back because its clear that the one way that Labor can get its true believers back is by industrial relations being the vehicle.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
But we wonder why people do not trust politicians. We sit around this table. It could not have been clearer. Tony has said it time and time and time and time again and you keep calling him a liar.
PETER LEWIS
I did not call him a liar. I am saying there is pressure…there will be pressure on the Liberals to go as close as they can to that way of looking at industrial relations in the lead up to the next election. And why wouldn’t it?
DAVID SPEERS
Let me ask you this, Scott Ryan, is there much consultation going on in the Party Room? Are you getting an adequate input into this decision?
SCOTT RYAN
I think the party room, unlike the Labor party room, is where we actually have debates that actually make decisions – I mean a couple of years ago we had a debate in our party room whether to support the second stimulus. And the party room…
DAVID SPEERS
I’m asking about this issue though…is the party room getting enough input into…
SCOTT RYAN
I think the party room’s getting exactly the input it should because Tony listens to the party room discussion and actually part of the feedback from there and part of the development of our policy was feedback from the party room. I wasn’t in the parliament prior to the 2007 election, But I do recall from what I was told from some of my colleagues then, there were some criticisms of Work Choices in the party room. So if anything, Tony has listened to them.
DAVID SPEERS
So everyone’s happy campers then?
SCOTT RYAN
The fact that the Liberal Party’s got debate…
MIKE KELLY
He’s gone out and made a policy change and then come back and told them what it was and then they’ll have a discussion
SCOTT RYAN
The fact that the Liberal party’s debating this issue is actually a good thing. We’re talking about how we need flexibility in the workplace. Some people are former ministers who have got a great record of achievement, that’s substantially predates Work Choices are talking about this publicly. That is the sign of a strong party, not a weak one
DAVID SPEERS
We’re going to take a quick break. We’re going to move on from industrial relations and look at the decision this week to allow women to serve in front line combat roles in the military. Stay with us.
* * * * *
DAVID SPEERS
We’re joined this week by Labor Parliamentary Secretary, Mike Kelly, Former NSW Liberal Leader Kerry Chikarovski, Peter Lewis, a pollster with Essential Media Communications and Liberal Senator and Shadow Parliamentary Secretary Scott Ryan.
The Government announced this week within five years women will be able to serve in all defence roles, including the 7% of military jobs that are currently off limits – the sort of front line combat roles that do involve hand to hand combat and, lets face it, killing. There has been bipartisan support for this, but some, particularly former military members, are concerned about the implications.
Mike Kelly at the table here is the only one of the panel who does have direct military experience, what do you think of this change?
MIKE KELLY
Well I think the first point to really affirm is that this is not an affirmative action program. This is setting neutral criteria, gender neutral criteria. So the issue, is that people of whatever sex will be able to apply for a position and then they will have to meet the criteria for it.
DAVID SPEERS
What are the criteria – I’m not asking you what you have to do to be in the special forces, but are they really defined at the moment, the roles – you know, how much you have to be able to lift, how long you have to be able to stay awake – all these sort of things?
MIKE KELLY
Yeah well certainly the tasks are very clear in the training – so it’s a question of also defining some of the biometrics and biomechanics aspects of it. Certainly a lot of work has to go into that. But there will be no fudging of this – that’s the key thing. I would never sit still for fudging of standards in such important units as the SAS or Commandos.
DAVID SPEERS
Are you confident, from your experience, that women in theory can do all these roles?
MIKE KELLY
We just recently commemorated the life of Nancy Wake who killed SS guards with her bare hands and led operations in France in World War II – and she was awarded an array of decorations for her bravery, courage and killing. So there are women who can do this, let me tell you, and they are out there now, this is the thing. If you wanted to have a debate about putting women at risk – forget it it’s over. The thing is, people talk about “the front line”, but in most of our operations since World War II the linear battle space has not been a characteristic. So everywhere you go you will have the IED threat, rockets, the threat of terrorist ambush, insurgency attacks. So they are already out there, they are armed with weapons, ready to do their job – these extra roles that are being opened up to them will depend on whether they are capable of doing it, and whether they want to. So you may see that nobody actually applies, but if they do, then they’ll get a fair run.
DAVID SPEERS
Kerry Chikarovski do you see this as an important change?
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Look I think this is probably a significant change, and I think Mike’s right, you can’t be changing the criteria for selection so if someone is physically capable of doing it, then you know, why shouldn’t they be able to put up their hand. I mean for example we’ve got women in the police, women in the fire brigade – I live next door to a fire station and the blokes down there tell me the most physically able persons in that fire station is in fact a female firey – she’s just strong and quick and everything. And years ago I was in Macedonia and I met a woman who was a partisan – who fought and you know she was – I don’t know whether I should say this on television, but she was doing certain things to peoples throats, and killing people during the war – so I think to say that women are incapable of doing those things is wrong. Why women would want to do them – other than in a war situation and in those sort of circumstances… and why they would volunteer – I mean in her particular case her country was under threat and there weren’t a lot of troops so there were women who got involved… but why women would want to I don’t actually understand. But if women want to I don’t actually understand. If they do and they are physically capable then I think it is up to them to prove they can do it.
DAVID SPEERS
There have been a number of arguments made against this – traditionally Peter, that it could affect the way their male colleges perform, whether they are going to be too chivalrous on the front line in protecting their women comrades rather than doing their job of killing the enemy. There’s been the argument if there is a higher casualty rate of women in the battlefield how is that going to go down in the community? What do you think? Do any of these arguments hold weight?
PETER LEWIS
I think the first one sounds a bit like a boy zone memory or version of what they army probably is like. I won’t say I’ve got a great idea – I assume it’s a professional operation. If women are in there they are going to be in there for the standards – the concern is that the standards will be dropped but it sounds like that is not going to happen. The question I have and Mike you might know the answer, is how many women are we talking about?
DAVID SPEERS
Is it going to make much of a difference?
MIKE KELLY
We’ll have to see. But the thing is …
PETER LEWIS
Are you aware if there is going to be a que of people…
MIKE KELLY
I’m sure there are some women who will be interested in taking up this challenge. And in certain circumstances having a special operations trained women, may be very useful.
DAVID SPEERS
Can you tell us, without going into detail…
MIKE KELLY
I’ll tell you one thing you have to understand about the training in the SAS in terms of whether they would operate effectively with women – they are selected specifically for their ability to maintain a relentless focus on their mission. And to pursue that goal regardless of any peripheral issues or whatever. To be self disciplined, to carry out their duty and to endure in that task. Those are the primary characteristics they will be selected for. So whether or no the person to the left or right of them is a woman – and particularly when the bullets start flying, it just won’t matter. So they will focus relentlessly on their mission.
DAVID SPEERS
Scott Ryan, do you think there could also be a benefit from this sort of change, in terms of the cultural issues within defence that have been so much talked about, where various scandals of popped up, attitudes towards women and also allowing women to move into the most senior ranks in defence?
SCOTT RYAN
I think the latter point the Chief of Defence Force mentioned, moving into senior ranks – I think any organisation is strengthened by breadth and diversity. On the personnel issues, it’s not something I have experience with, and if the Chief of the Defence Force is happy for this to progress then I think on personnel issues in particular, you take his advice, and one day it might even be a her.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Can I just ask, cause I don’t know the answer to this question – does it actually improve your opportunity for promotion if you’ve been through a unit or served in a unit like that?
MIKE KELLY
There’s no question – I mean ideally, what you’re looking for in an officer moving into the higher ranks is a broad range of experience and of course training. But obviously at the higher echelons you are looking at people who are going to be directing operations and needing to have an understanding of that so – for example our current Chief of the Defence Force was my CO in Somalia. He commanded the first battalion the Royal Australian Regiment and has a deep understanding of operational necessities and that’s the sort of thing you would hope to have in the background at least in a mix in the command elements.
SCOTT RYAN
I think the key point here is about the standards. We’ve all read stories in our various state police forces where police have talked about – not about letting women in, but about in the past 5 to 10 years standards have been relaxed in some cases and some police having expressed concern about that and as Mike and Kerry had mentioned, maintaining the focus upon those – and that might require some further definition, I think is the most important thing here – because this is not a normal job. This is not a job at all.
DAVID SPEERS
Given we’re all in furious agreement on that one then lets move on to the other announcement from the Government this week – another report on ‘Australia in the Asian Century’. The Prime Minister announced this in a fairly detailed speech on her view of the Asian region, the growing rise of China, India and also now Indonesia, and what it’s going to mean, what it already does mean, economically and strategically for Australia. Scott Ryan there has been a lot of reviews, papers, articles, research into the growth of Asia and what it means for Australia – do you think we need a whole new White Paper on this?
SCOTT RYAN
I’ve got a bookshelf full of books, textbooks I studied at university on this 20 years ago. We don’t need another inquiry. We are dealing with it in an economic sense, we are dealing with it in a social and personal sense in our level of engagement with Asia. What’s required is action. We’ve got the ongoing problem of selling uranium to China but not to India because of a technicality. We have free trade agreements with China, with Korea, with Indonesia stalled and no progress having been made. They’re practical examples where we know those nations are interested in progressing, but the Government hasn’t done anything. So another inquiry, another White Paper into something that kids are taught about in primary school, I think it’s completely superfluous.
DAVID SPEERS
Yet the Opposition has backed it.
SCOTT RYAN
Well what we’ve also said is that the Government should be actually taking steps to ensure that those things that have been sitting on the shelf waiting to be done the last couple of years – those free trade agreements, we have a difference over the sale of uranium, should be progressed. They’re practical issues.
DAVID SPEERS
The criticism has been Mike Kelly, that there’s a lot of stuff already written about this, why isn’t the Government doing more of these practical steps, allowing uranium to be sold to India, boosting our diplomatic presence in Asia, teaching more Asian languages in Australia – there’s some stuff that could be done right now.
MIKE KELLY
Well it is being done. For the last four years it has been. People need to understand that a White Paper process is a completely different focus and it’s not just about economists bashing their gums over a particular side issue of the overall landscape that we’re talking about here… we’re talking about a disciplined process, similar to that which shapes our defence strategy. We have a very detailed White Paper process there that informs the development of our military strategy. So this is going to fill in the other part of that puzzle in terms of the economic and social aspects of our position in this region, and it’s critical because the growth in Asia now is exponential and its posing significant issues now not only for terms of trade and other engagements that we have, but also there are internal dynamics in Australia that we have that are being created in relation to population. One thing we do need to focus on is facilitating our business engagement – the majors have had a lot of success dealing with China for example, but our small and medium enterprises really need to get into this space too. And we need to be looking at how we can facilitate that.
DAVID SPEERS
Do you think Kerry, the Government is doing a good job of engaging with Asia?
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Well I actually went to a briefing from Minister Rudd and Minister Emerson on a potential trade trip to Asia and I must say I found that Minister Rudd was very engaging that time – best speech I’ve ever heard him give. He was actually incredibly fantastic.
DAVID SPEERS
Working the room?
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
He was terrific, but I mean it was really interesting because they were talking about the opportunities in China and how smaller businesses could get involved. And I thought that to me is the sort of practical action that they should be doing more of. A blue print for engagement – absolutely, I think that’s a fantastic idea. Having yet another research paper which is going to take another 12 months to write and another 12 months to think about after that… I just think that there are enormous opportunities at the moment, the Government is obviously grabbing some of them, they should be grabbing all of them with both hands and not saying, ‘well we’ve got to work out how we’re going to talk to these people’ . They already know how to talk to these people, they’re already doing that, they just need to, I think, do a lot more practically, on the ground, talk to business, get them to do it, and help them facilitate that.
PETER LEWIS
There is also a disconnect here between the way that business and the Government run the country and what voters think. We saw it 18 months ago with the farce of the big Australia small Australia debate – but we’ve recently been doing some focus groups around the concept of growth and you ask people what they think about growth and its all negative. There is not even a sense that population growth is in the national interest. There is a massive gap between Joe Punter and what the policy makers are doing, so I don’t know that a White Paper is a vehicle to build better understanding. I think we’ve lost our economic narrative. There was a time there where it was just ‘the mining boom is going to save us’ and the Australian dollar has gone up, and people are saying ‘what about manufacturing’ so we need to fill in those gaps so people are given a sense of where the economy is going.
MIKE KELLY
And that is what a White Paper will do. We need to understand that the effects of this massive commodity boom in relation to the $430 billion coming our way in investment and the 170,000 jobs that BHP alluded to today saying they are going to need in the industry. There’s also where we are going to sit as an economy in terms of what happens when the steam comes off of that and how we can diversify our economy and we’ve got a growing affluent population in Asia now that’s going to be looking for more and high quality food, quality life goods of a higher quality and this is an opportunity for us and we need to know how we are going to position ourselves.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
But don’t you think the population – and Australian voters out there think you should already know that?
MIKE KELLY
Well we do.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Then why are we having a White Paper?
MIKE KELLY
But that’s why we have invested so much in skilling our population. But certainly you need to understand where those opportunities are going to be into the future.
Inaudible
MIKE KELLY
But you need a whole of Government approach to this and this is one of the things that we’ve been missing in the defence space for example – that this Government has been curing. For example you have a situation in Afghanistan where you have social, economic and political strategy all harmonizing and we’ve been moving towards that space, but in this area we have to do that to, we have to have the whole of Government picture.
SCOTT RYAN
This is partly about a Prime Minister desperate to try and steal some thunder from a Foreign Minister who is stalking her and to create the illusion of activity in this particular space and talk about anything, as you introduced David, other than a carbon tax. The problem is, thirty years ago we talked about Japan, twenty years ago we talked about the South-East Asian tiger economies, most people missed the growth and mining boom we have had this decade. So Governments thinking ten and twenty years ahead, their history has not been one that you would actually back in. The idea that there should be one grand plan actually worries me, because too often when Government does one grand plan it actually gets it wrong.
MIKE KELLY
What you’re suggesting is the need for deeper analysis, and that is what this will be,
Peter – Inaudible – you’re proposition that we shouldn’t be planning is quite remarkable.
DAVID SPEERS
When we do look 10 or 20 years into the future the big picture question in all of this is balancing that relationship between the United States and China and India. This isn’t a zero sum game. But China is increasingly going to become dominant and the US military presence in this region the last 40 years – may not be the case?
MIKE KELLY
Well this is the issue. Looking to how we can work to harness for good, the dynamics of the relationships that are developing in our region. So building freer trade arrangements on a broader scale, not just bilaterally, working towards intertwining opportunities so we reduce the potential for conflict, for example and build confidence in our region so that we can have, you know, the sort of growing economic and social and political space that exists in Europe.
DAVID SPEERS
We need to move on, after the break, we’re going to have a look at the court decision on Andrew Bolt – free speech, has it been damaged by this decision? Stay with us.
* * * * * * * *
DAVID SPEERS
Welcome back, we’re joined this week by Labor Parliamentary Secretary, Mike Kelly, Former NSW Liberal Leader Kerry Chikarovski, Peter Lewis, from Essential Media Communications and Liberal Senator and Shadow Parliamentary Secretary, Scott Ryan.
This week the Federal Court found columnist Andrew Bolt in breach of the Racial Discrimination Act over a couple of pieces he wrote back in 2009 about so called ‘light skinned’ Indigenous Australians, suggesting that they were identifying themselves as Aboriginal for political or personal gain – essentially. Now the ruling itself, wasn’t a defamation case that was made against him, the plaintiffs – about 15 of them, went through the Racial Discrimination Act. The Judge found in the end that he was in breach of that act. Now he has claimed that this is a sad day for free speech and a number of people have pointed out that while they might not have much liked what he wrote, in these pieces, that this is a bit of setback for free speech. Scott Ryan, what do you think?
SCOTT RYAN
This is an enormous setback. Free speech is meant to be messy. And the important thing to note about this is what you said – it’s not a defamation case, so no one was saying that they were ridiculed, or they suffered loss because of this.
DAVID SPEERS
The rules around defamation are that you can have fair and reasonable comment – this went through the Racial Discrimination Act…
SCOTT RYAN
But the amendments put through by Labor in 1995, which the Liberal leader in the Senate at the time, Robert Hill said they were too broad and would have a dangerous impact upon speech. The important thing here is the measure of this is subjective. So it’s about whether you feel insulted and something that makes you feel insulted David might not insult myself, or Mike, and that is going to have an impact upon speech, because there is no objective test.
DAVID SPEERS
But wasn’t this ruling also based on the fact that Andrew Bolt made factual errors in these pieces about the genealogy of the people he was writing about saying one women had a white father, when in fact she didn’t, others not growing up identifying themselves as aboriginal, when they did – that there were some key factual errors.
SCOTT RYAN
But that’s not why the Judge found the breach had occurred. The breach occurred because these people could legitimately have felt insulted or humiliated and various other tests in the Racial Discrimination Act. But free speech – if we say no one can be insulted, we don’t have free speech anymore.
PETER LEWIS
But there is a difference between (inaudible) insulting and insulting on the basis of race and the Racial Discrimination Act is there for good reason…
SCOTT RYAN
But this is not the Racial Discrimination Act that was passed in ’75 that says no one can discriminate, this is the amendment that was passed in ’95.
PETER LEWIS
Yeah but here you’ve got a guy with incredible power who’s offending people on the basis of their race based on factual error – you know, suck it in.
Inaudible
SCOTT RYAN
Free speech has been there. You know for the last…
PETER LEWIS
There have always been limits on what is acceptable…
SCOTT RYAN
And they have not been subjective tests. They have been about defamation; they have been about when you put public safety in danger, like that famous line of shouting ‘fire’ in a crowded theatre. They have not been saying, ‘well it might be a breach of the Act if Mike feels offended, but not if Kerry feels offended.’
PETER LEWIS
But that is disregarding the differences in power that have been the underpinnings of the Racial Discrimination Act. It is there for good reason.
SCOTT RYAN
So you want Judges sitting…
PETER LEWIS
I would rather have a Judge sitting there than no one sitting there, like this farce that the media should be above it…
SCOTT RYAN
Well should we have blasphemy laws? Where people sit and control and decide what was acceptable and what wasn’t?
DAVID SPEERS
The Judge did refer to quote ‘the divisive tone, the provocative and inflammatory language, the inclusion of gratuitous asides’ – should that be something that can’t be included in a comment piece?
PETER LEWIS
I’ll probably get kicked out of the Journalists Union for this, but we talk about ourselves like a profession, unlike professions like medicine and law, there is no registration, there is a code of ethics which is upheld in name only, there is no enforcement mechanism, there is Press Council that doesn’t really have any teeth – although, there maybe an enquiry into that… look I don’t think Andrew Bolt in his position should be out there sooking about this one.
DAVID SPEERS
Kerry?
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
I have not read the judgement obviously, but only read the reporting, and the Judge was at great pains to say that he wasn’t in fact impinging on free speech, from what I read today. And look I do feel there has to be a level of responsibility about reporting. To accuse someone with a German name and having German father who was therefore white, when in fact the father was black – I mean that’s fairly basic research that you kind of figure, you better check out those sort of things – so whether its free speech or not I think he just fails because he did a very, very, very, poor piece of journalism and he’s been held to account.
DAVID SPEERS
The Opposition, the Shadow Attorney General George Brandis, has flagged possibly changing the Racial Discrimination Act if you guys are elected. Mike Kelly what do you think, is there a problem with the Act?
MIKE KELLY
I’d be very reluctant to fly George Brandis’ advice on anything (inaudible). But I have to say that obviously, you know, there has been an appeal that has been flagged here so I want to be very careful what I say. But really what we’re talking about is three categories here… One is the Racial Vilification incitement of hatred and violence side of the spectrum, and you’ve got the defamation option where people are you know, personally vilified and defamed – not many people have access to that as a remedy, it’s very limited, its usually only the rich and powerful that can take that road. And I guess there’s this middle space where you know, things cross a line and there has to be some sort of remedy. Now we can have an informed and open minded discussion about what fills that space, but at this stage lets see what the outcome of the appeal is.
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
And again the commentary in the paper today was that they didn’t go down the defamation route, because they weren’t actually seeking damages. They wanted a statement made – an apology, that those sort of comments were not in the public interest and therefore not fair.
PETER LEWIS
It makes it very shrill (inaudible) – somebody getting it wrong…
SCOTT RYAN
It’s an attack on free speech if we have something in an Act of Parliament that says you can be taken to Court if you offend someone.
PETER LEWIS
On the basis of this… you have to finish that sentence.
SCOTT RYAN
Yes on the basis of this. But the point being…
PETER LEWIS
No that’s important.
SCOTT RYAN
Yes it is, but the point being free speech is meant to be messy. Free speech is meant to be about free flowing debate.
DAVID SPEERS
And the Judge did say he’s not saying the issues of racial identity should be off limits from commentary…
PETER LEWIS
Get it wrong – and if you’re offensive and a smartarse about it – you cop it.
SCOTT RYAN
Yes but if the test is subjective, then how do you know whether you are going to offend someone? This test is not an arbitrary test.
PETER LEWIS
The point is that you think it through before going out…
SCOTT RYAN
You want Judges referring to the tone of journalists articles? I mean I think every journalist in Australia should be concerned about this.
DAVID SPEERS
At the heart of Andrew Bolt’s piece is that people can pick or chose their ethnic or racial diversity –
SCOTT RYAN
I mean I don’t particularly want to judge people on this. They can describe themselves how they see fit.
MIKE KELLY
And there are tests within the various provisions that regulate what assistance is available, for example to Indigenous Australians. So those are the tests they will have to meet in order to attain that assistance.
PETER LEWIS
It just seems this debate goes on in a power vacuum – this is a debate about Indigenous Australians and I just don’t think that you just go out there the way Bolt did.
DAVID SPEERS
Let’s finish with Julia Gillard’s 50th birthday that she’s been marking this week of course. Does she have a great deal to celebrate Peter?
PETER LEWIS
Well it’s a new year and things can only get better. I think there are a few positives there for Labor if they look deep down. One is there is two years until an election and nobody can say anything set in stone. The second thing is there are a number of issues they are working on at the moment – mining tax, national disability, improved superannuation – are very popular with the electorate.
DAVID SPEERS
Just a few of the other things are wildly unpopular.
PETER LEWIS
Indeed. But you know, politics is such a strange beast, that you know, you would be starting the new year with a sense of optimism or else you wouldn’t be human.
DAVID SPEERS
Kerry do you think she will be celebrating much this birthday?
KERRY CHIKAROVSKI
Look I actually think people underrate Julia in a lot of ways. And I think you’d probably be surprised I say that. But having been there – you know, I know how hard it can be. I now how difficult it is when you’re being pilloried by a whole lot of people – the Opposition, the media, all sorts of people…
Inaudible
You know I actually think she’s very courageous. And I think that is something that she doesn’t get credit for and I think she should get credit for. To get out of bed every day, with all of that raining down on you, and still stand up there smiling – is a very tough thing to do. So I think – she’s trying to manage a very difficult parliament, she’s still pursuing, whether you agree with it or not, and Scott and I probably disagree with a lot of what she is doing – she is still pursuing an agenda. She has a political agenda, she has a policy agenda and she is still trying to push that through. And you know I think – in any fair assessment, she should be given points for that, and as I said whether you agree with her or not, she should be given points for the fact she is doing what she is doing.
DAVID SPEERS
Scott Ryan do you agree with that?
SCOTT RYAN
I actually don’t – other than to wish her a happy birthday. Most of the challenges she has brought upon herself are completely self imposed. She was the one that said ‘there would be no carbon tax’ then brings one in, the Malaysian solution – simply because they are too proud – too much pride to say ‘we got it wrong when we got rid of TPVs and Nauru, so we’re going to have a Pacific Solution, we’re going to have a South China Sea solution…
DAVID SPEERS
Alright I think you’re getting a bit away from the question – we’re nearly out of time. Mike Kelly, will Julia Gillard have a few more birthdays in The Lodge?
MIKE KELLY
Oh look there’s no doubt we’re in the early difficult phase of a term when you’re bedding in new policy where it’s so easy to play the obfuscation and confusion game. But we know we’ve got two years to demonstrate the veracity and validity of what’s being attempted – and certainly people aren’t being asked at this point in time to focus on making a choice. And certainly the Coalition aren’t throwing policies out there to compare.
DAVID SPEERS
We are out time but thank you Mike Kelly, Kerry Chikarovski, Peter Lewis, and Scott Ryan for joining us this week. We’ll be back the same time next week. Hope you enjoyed, bye for now.