David Lipson: Joining me from Melbourne is Victorian Senator for the Liberal Party, Scott Ryan. Thanks for your time. And from our CBD studio in Sydney, the NSW Labor Senator Matt Thistlethwaite. Matt, thanks for your time as well. First to you, I want to ask you about the timing of the leaking of this so called sealed section. It came of course after Kevin Rudd was said to be miffed for being airbrushed out of some of the Labor speeches over the weekend. He’s been critical of the outcomes of the conference. Now we see the leaking of what was meant to be a secret review that’s critical of him. Is there any other way to see this apart from a warning shot to him and his supporters?
Senator Matt Thistlethwaite: Look David, this report is now part of history. Some of the elements of the report were discussed at the weekend during the platform debate about party reform. Some of those were adopted. Some of them weren’t. It’s not an issue that occupies much of my time as a senator. It’s certainly not an issue that is high in the minds of working Australians. We’ve got an ambitious reform agenda in a number of policy areas. It’s not something that we look at much. We’re just getting on with the job. A number of important policy issues were discussed at the conference; uranium sales to India, gay marriage, a national disability insurance scheme, reforms of our fair work act. They were the major issues. They were the major focus of the conference, and they’re gong to be the major focus of the work of this government, and my work.
Lipson: Well what about Kevin Rudd’s criticisms then of the conference itself? He said that there were hopes for giant leaps forward when it came to reform. He said instead that the ALP barely moved at all. How do you rate the outcomes and those comments from Kevin Rudd?
Senator Thistlethwaite: The Prime Minister said that she wanted an open, frank, exciting discussion on policy issues and you were there on the weekend, you would have seen that’s what we had. A traditional, great Labor conference with open and frank debate, various views, various opinions being put, quite often, very emotively and passionately around a number of important policy issues. I think the conference highlighted the fact that we are a government that’s getting on with the job. We’re not resting on our laurels. We’re certainly looking at a number of reforms into the future, building on the great reforms we’ve had as a government so far; carbon pricing, plain packaging legislation, the minerals resource rent tax. We’re now looking at the future; national disability insurance scheme, gay marriage, and looking at the issues associated with building and strengthening our relationship in the region. And these are the issues that we were focused on and they’re the issues I’m going to continue to focus on as a member of this government.
David Lipson: Senator Ryan, I’ll get to you to respond to that. But I also want to ask you about the conference itself and how it compares to the sort of conferences we see the Coalition or the Liberal Party involved in. You’ve been involved in the reforms of the Victorian Liberal Party in the past. But most of those reforms seem to happen more behind closed doors, or at least we don’t see so much open dissent or debate. Now, I know that’s it’s not always pretty to see such things, but it does bring a lot of things out in the open and Tony Abbott of course just criticised it over the weekend as saying it’s just Labor navel gazing. But how did you see the conference and how does it compare to the Liberal way of doing things?
Senator Scott Ryan: Well look, just to the point where Matt was talking there, I encourage Matt to take a breath, but you know only in the dysfunctional world of the modern Labor Party would we have someone leak a report that did what? It complained about someone leaking. I mean what today’s leak showed, following the airbrushing of Kevin Rudd by the current Prime Minister over the weekend was that we have a Prime Minister and Foreign Minster basically at war with one another and as the newspapers have said today and Labor this morning, there are basically two camps.
Now what the Labor Party’s national conference showed was how this dysfunction has spread right throughout the Labor Party. Let’s go back and look at on the issue of gay marriage; they had to have a binding vote on the factions in order to ensure a conscience vote in parliament. I mean, that is ludicrous and it was to do nothing other than to save face for the Prime Minister.
Kevin Rudd blew the whistle on the reforms. When we led some change in the Victorian division, it was simple. We gave every party member the plebiscite right to vote in their local Liberal candidate and we gave every party member the right to vote on Liberal Party policy at our state conference. Now, Labor creates the illusion of reform. The factional bosses said last time it needs to be a quiet conference. It needs to be a coronation. This times they’ve said can we make some noise to make it look like were actually debating ideas, and then it’s spent the entire weekend on none of the significant issues that are really worrying people every day now; how they balance their budgets.
I was at a factory in South East Melbourne today and the guy that owns the local sandwich store in that light manufacturing heartland of Melbourne said that people are coming in with five and 10 cent pieces to buy the newspaper. They’re not buying lunch. They’re not buying coffee. And the reason is the cost of living is going through the roof.
Lipson: Sure, but when it comes to the actual debating of issues, do you concede that the Labor conference did allow a very open and at some times sort of bitter debate on some of the issues in a way that we haven’t seen the Liberal Party so openly discuss issues where people had very different opinions?
Senator Ryan: Well no that’s not the case at all David. What we saw was a confected and contrived debate where factional bosses were still doing deals behind closed doors on everything from a conscience vote over gay marriage to saving the Prime Minister’s face over uranium. I’ll go to my home division, just the state of Victoria. We have over 1000 people at our state conference every year for a whole weekend and those 1000 people debate every policy idea. Now we don’t have the spin merchants and the factional bosses out there trying to contrive the illusion of real party membership and debate and reform. We actually do it. That’s why our membership has actually been increasing, while Labor’s has been declining.
Lipson: Matt Thistlethwaite, I’ll get you to respond, a few things to respond to there, but specifically I want to ask you about party reform, because that was one of the big things that Labor wanted to address on the way in. It’s been criticised somewhat by some in the Labor Party, for example John Faulkner said that our party is in decline, it was small and getting smaller and faced unprecedented electoral threats. That was on the way in. Now we hear the Labor renewal national convener, Darcy Burns, saying that every single recommendation from the national review that might have empowered members and undermined factionalism has been defeated by the faceless men. Did you really achieve any reforms when it comes to the party and apart from an aspiration sort of number of increasing the membership next year, has there been any real substantial changes there?
Senator Thistlethwaite: There was a very lively and open discussion that went for basically the whole afternoon on the Saturday about party reform and a number…
Lipson: But outcomes?
Senator Thistlethwaite: Well a number of important outcomes, a national policy committee which will allow people, rank and file members of the party to apply to become members and be elected to this body, to have a say in determining policy. A number of other reforms, opening up the party and making sure that people can access the party and participate online. There was a great discussion which took up the whole afternoon on party reform, but I must come back to some of the points that Scott made earlier, particularly the point about same sex marriage. What you saw on the weekend was a good, open, democratic debate at the Labor conference, about a very important, topical issue in Australia at the moment. Now, we’ve said and we’ve come to the view, that we will grant a conscience vote for our MPs in the parliament. Unlike the Liberal party, who have not said that they will grant a conscience vote on what is an important issue for many Australians, the Liberal Party…
Senator Ryan: Every vote is a conscience vote with us, Matt. Every vote is a conscience vote.
Senator Thistlethwaite: The Liberal Party claims to be a broad church. Well they’re not a broad church on this issue because Tony Abbott has said in the past that the party will decide the issue internally and MPs will be forced to take that position in the parliament
Senator Ryan: No, he hasn’t said that at all.
Lipson: Scott Ryan, I heard you saying there that every vote is a conscience vote in the Coalition, but in reality that very rarely happens that you see anyone crossing the floor on any issues. Should Tony Abbott encourage his MPs to vote in any way they like?
Senator Ryan: Well, this is an important distinction David, which is sometimes dismissed. If Matt crosses the floor on a particular issue his membership of the Labor party is finished. Done and dusted, no questions asked. In the Liberal Party every vote is one that we decide according to our conscience. There is no automatic expulsion.
Lipson: Sure, but when was the last time someone voted apart from the party block? It really doesn’t happen very often.
Senator Ryan: Only two years ago, quite a few Liberals took a strong stand against Labor’s CPRS [carbon pollution reduction scheme]; the first edition of the carbon tax. And that actually was quite a public one. So, I think that important role of conscience matters, because we know that there were Labor MPs and Senators that didn’t like the carbon tax. They didn’t have the same freedom that Liberals like myself and others did, to express a different view.
Lipson: Do you think, Scott Ryan, that it puts if not pressure on Tony Abbott, at least a tension on Tony Abbott when it comes to deciding about the gay marriage issue? He’s sort of kicked the can a little further down the road, said it’ll be discussed in the party room. But, now its not really Labor’s issue any more. It seems to be a tension on the Liberal and Coalition parties.
Senator Ryan: Well, that’s only because Labor want to talk about Liberals and the Coalition more than their own agenda. On this, as well as other issues, they went to the last election with a promise to defend legislation that was put there by both the Coalition and the Labor Party, that defined marriage as between a man and a woman. Now regardless of anyone’s particular views on it, I think it’s important that that promise is kept and that people are given a chance to have a say. All we have said is that when a bill comes before Parliament, the Liberal Party will look at it in the normal way it looks at all legislation.
Lipson: One of the other issues of course discussed was uranium. This was not a very surprising result that in the end the Labor party voted to allow the export of uranium to India, Matt Thistlethwaite, I want to ask you about the United Nations. They’re the ones that run the non-proliferation treaty that look after that. India is not a signatory to that. We’ve seen essentially the Labor Party platform sideline the United Nations on this issue, although they say India will give insurances against non-proliferation. But we saw also Labor essentially sideline the UN when it comes to asylum seekers as well. Is this a lessening, or is it going to result in a lessening of the influence of the United Nations or the way that the Labor Party places the importance of the United Nations?
Senator Thistlethwaite: We believe that the best way to ensure a continued commitment internationally to nuclear non-proliferation is through engagement, not isolation. And that’s why we’ve taken the approach of engaging with India regarding this subject to strict bilateral safeguards, which will be written into any agreement that Australia reaches with India regarding uranium exports. And these are safeguards that we have already signed off on as a member of the nuclear supply group, when the United States sought a waiver in 2008 and as a member of the board of governors of the international atomic energy agency, when India sought approval for the signing of the additional protocols. So the safe guards which will be in this agreement, we’ve already agreed to at an international level. We’re working within the atomic energy agency’s guidelines to ensure that we are engaging with a very important strategic and economic partner in the Asia Pacific and I think this is a positive outcome for our nation.
Lipson: Ok, I want to discuss the polls. Today’s Newspoll, which shows a little slight improvement for Labor when it comes to the primary and two party prefered numbers, but also looks at of course the preferred prime ministership. Julia Gillard’s moving a little bit further ahead of Tony Abbott and perhaps most worrying for the coalition, Tony Abbott’s satisfaction rating as compared to Julia Gillard’s. Scott Ryan, Tony Abbott’s approval rating or satisfaction rating has dropped to the lowest point that it’s been in the last two years since he’s been leader. Why aren’t people satisfied with what he’s doing?
Senator Ryan: Well David, this is another poll that comes out on a regular basis and what we have is a Labor Party that is so scared to talk about its own record, it tries to divert attention. A poll is a poll and the Labor Party is running scared because it’s worried about the people passing judgement on itself.
Senator Thistlethwaite: Can I just comment on that?
Lipson: Yeah, go for it.
Senator Thistlethwaite: David, were happy to talk about our record. One of the best managements of an economy in the OECD during the Global Financial Crisis. We’re now talking about a reform agenda in a national disability insurance scheme, increases in pensions, increases in the child care rebate, the biggest-spending budget in health care in the country’s history…
Senator Ryan: You’re right on the biggest spending budget…
Senator Thistlethwaite: Finally, putting a price on carbon emissions, plain packaging…
Senator Ryan: Call it a tax, call it a tax.
Senator Thistlethwaite: …plain packaging of cigarettes in this country. We’re now starting to talk about the next round of reforms. We’re happy to talk about our reform agenda. What these polls today show is that people in Australia are getting sick and tired of the no agenda from the Opposition. No to everything we announce and no policy initiatives
Lipson: Its hardly cause for celebration though, I mean Labor’s primary vote, support is still at 31 per cent and on a two-party preferred basis although there has been an improvement, the Labor Party would still be drop kicked if an election were held today.
Senator Thistlethwaite: Polls come and go. We don’t get hung up on them. I’m simply making the point that I was out in the western suburbs of Sydney this morning opening two new fantastic Building the Education Revolution libraries and classrooms at public schools in western Sydney. And the people and teachers that I spoke to weren’t too concerned about the polls but they were really pleased that their government was investing in education for this generation and future generations of Australians. They’re concerned about policy and that’s why were seeing a downturn in the Liberal’s numbers because they haven’t announced any policies.
Senator Ryan: Take a breath for a second Matt. Take a breath.
Lipson: Senator Ryan, go for it.
Senator Ryan: You’ve got a poll. I mean, polls do come and go. That’s one thing we’ll agree on. But the reason Labor is so desperate to talk about anything other than itself is that it does not want to talk about how it promised no carbon tax and it has brought one in, although it always uses the euphemism of a price on carbon. Its broken explicit promises to the Australian people. Less than one in three people are willing to endorse the performance of the Labor Party.
I was at an insulation business this morning and an insulation business that has nearly collapsed even though it has been around for nearly 20 years, because of Labor’s bungled home insulation system, and the fact that it put hundreds and hundreds of people out of work and destroyed quite a viable industry. The carbon tax is going to increase the costs of every small and medium business. The cost of living is going up. You just don’t want to, you are just trying to run away from the impact of your agenda, and you’re only going to use your talking points.
Lipson: OK gentlemen, unfortunately were going to have to leave it there but that you very much for your time. Scott Ryan, Matt Thistlethwaite. Enjoyed that.