LYNDAL CURTIS
Welcome to Capital Hill. Well the Prime Minister spent her 50th birthday in Melbourne today, part of the day chatting to children. The foreign minister Kevin Rudd was in his electorate reading to children today and Tony Abbott was in Queensland too, talking about manufacturing and the carbon tax. All in all, it was a sedate day in federal politics. But there are still a few issues to mull over and helping me to do so are Labor MP Andrew Leigh and Liberal Senator Scott Ryan. Welcome to you both.
ANDREW LEIGH
Thanks Lyndal.
SCOTT RYAN
Good afternoon Lyndal.
LYNDAL CURTIS
We’ll start the day with some fall out from yesterday’s court decision about columnist Andrew Bolt. Julia Gillard didn’t want to comment ahead of any appeal by the Herald Sun newspaper, but Tony Abbott did today and here what he said:
“Free speech has always coexisted with defamation laws. But the important thing is that the people ought to be able to voice an opinion. They should ensure that they work within the context of defamation laws. But they should be able to voice an opinion. And sometimes those opinions will be upsetting, maybe even offensive. But if we’re going to have free speech, it’s also going to be pretty rugged speech. It’s going to be pretty robust speech. It won’t just be bland speech.”
LYNDAL CURTIS
Scott Ryan, if I could go to you first. Is this simply an argument of free speech versus legally constrained speech? Or is it more a case of free speech coming with responsibility?
SCOTT RYAN
Oh well, Lyndal, steering away from the actually judgement, which I haven’t had time to read completely, I think as Tony just pointed out this actually is an argument about free speech. When these amendments, the racial discrimination act, were passed by parliament in 1995, the Liberal Party warned that they were too broad. And I think all Australians should be worried about a law that says that freedom of speech is ok as long as you don’t insult or offend someone. Because freedom of speech needs to be robust in a liberal democracy.
LYNDAL CURTIS
Andrew Leigh, do you think that the law should better spell out what is free speech in Australia, because we have no right as the United States does to free speech, do we?
ANDREW LEIGH
Well, I think Lyndal, it is important to strike a balance here and I guess what really surprised me was Mr Abbott’s statement yesterday that there should be no imposition on the sacred right of free speech. What that’s effectively saying to Australians is that anyone should have the right for example to publish terrorist information. Everyone should have the right to publish the names of victims of crime. Anyone should have the right to hate speech. I think Mr Abbott is deeply, fundamentally wrong on that. We’ve always know that free speech should be curtailed. But that is not what Mr Abbott said yesterday. He said that everyone should have the right…
SCOTT RYAN
Andrew, that is not what he said.
ANDREW LEIGH
…to shout fire in a crowded theatre. He said we should never do anything in this country which restricts the sacred principal of free speech. That’s Mr Abbott’s words.
LYNDAL CURTIS
Scott?
SCOTT RYAN
Andrew, that’s not what he said. What he said there was clear; that there have always been some restriction on speech. And that famous phrase about not being able to yell fire in a crowded theatre is one; public safety. You can’t insight violence. You can’t defame someone. But this is a new law that was passed just over 15 years ago, that said that you might not be able to say something if you offend or insult them. And unlike their being an objective test like there is with the other limitations on speech, this is a subjective test. And that’s the real danger of this; that the law could be different for different people depending on how they feel about what someone says about them. And that is a slippery slope. The last 300 years have been about the expansion of the rights to freedom of speech and the freedom of expression. We don’t want to reverse that trend and start saying that the risk of offending someone means it should restrain what you have to say about a political debate.
ANDREW LEIGH
Scott, I agree with you we need to strike a balance. But let’s be absolutely clear. That was not what Mr Abbott said yesterday…
SCOTT RYAN
No you’re taking one sentence we heard earlier – we heard earlier from Tony exactly what he said about freedom of speech.
ANDREW LEIGH
And what is very clear…so what is very clear…Scott, we’re not in question time. I gave you a go. Lets have a bit of to and fro. What was very clear, Mr Abbott said yesterday was that nothing should impinge on the sacred rights of free speech. Now we know with Mr Abbott, what you say isn’t what you get. We know that he has a very clear track record of saying one thing to one audience, another thing to another audience. And what he’s wanted to do here is…
LYNDAL CURTIS
But can you take though Andrew, one quote, just one quote and attribute all these things to Mr Abbott?
ANDREW LEIGH
He’s very clear said yesterday, we should never do anything in this country which restricts the sacred principal of free speech. That is, absolutely, incorrect.
SCOTT RYAN
If Julia Gillard said there would be no carbon tax under the government I lead, Andrew. If we want to start talking about quotes…
ANDREW LEIGH
…you can change the subject if you like, but it is very clear here that Mr Abbott is way out into libertarian territory.
SCOTT RYAN
Pulling a phrase out of a longer transcript andrew is beneath you.
LYNDAL CURTIS
Well I might just change the subject myself. Tony Abbott yesterday again ruled out the coalition government introducing individual statutory contracts, in response to an article written by the former treasurer Peter Costello who said Mr Abbott shouldn’t be ruling things in and out. He also spelled out what he sees as Liberal Party beliefs; individual rights, individual freedom to trade and personal liberty. Scott, you’re a member of the revived Society of Modest Members in the Liberal Party. In your view, are those beliefs that Mr Costello outlined still core beliefs of the liberal party?
SCOTT RYAN
Well the values of individual liberty, freedom of interaction, economically and personally; they’re eternal values that the liberal party, Lyndal. I don’t think there’s any question about those.
LYNDAL CURTIS
And whats the society your part of set up to do? Are you worried that those beliefs of the liberal party are being wound back a bit?
SCOTT RYAN
Oh not at all. The Society of Modest Members, named after Bert Kelly, who was a lone voice for economic liberalisation for many years, is a discussion forum to talk about policy issues and future challenges for Australia. Because what Bert Kelly did in the 60s and 70s was to talk about issues that were really addressed by Australia in the 80s and 90s. And that’s all it is. It’s a place for members of parliament to get together to discuss the policy challenges and to hear from outside experts. And our parliament, it will be better if more of us, I think, found the time to be able to do that.
LYNDAL CURTIS
Andrew, is there something similar in the Labor Party? Do you have little discussion groups, or possible ginger groups to pursue some things that you want to pursue.
ANDREW LEIGH
There certainly conversations going on all the time, Lyndal. We have a range of active caucus committees working on policy, and there’s a lot of informal discussions about policy ideas. And so, you know, I think that’s why you’ve now got the Labor Party arguing so strongly for the big economic reforms of our time. Arguing for getting Australians a fair share of their minerals. Arguing for putting a price on carbon pollution. Supporting serious substantial tax reform. All of that flows out of conversations, not only among ourselves, but most importantly, listening to expert scientist. Listening to economists, rather than trashing them as Mr Abbott has want to do.
LYNDAL CURTIS
Scott, the thing that Tony Abbott has been criticised for is ruling out individual statutory contracts. Should he have gone that far or should he have let the debate run in the Liberal Party before coming to a definite policy position?
SCOTT RYAN
We made a commitment before the last election that work choices was dead, buried and cremated, and that there’d be no place for individual contracts. We listened to the people in 2007. The debate were having now is actually about flexibility in the workplace. And that is something that Labor promised, but have not delivered. So all the Liberal Party is doing is keeping to its word. Andrew there talked about Labor allegedly talking about the big economic reforms. The problem is they don’t talk about them before an election. They only talk about them afterwards. That’s not taking people in due confidence. Tony made a promise, and he’s sticking to it. And that’s what political leaders should do.
LYNDAL CURTIS
He does though say that any changes to industrial relations should be based on problem solving rather than ideology. Is there anything wrong with ideology?
SCOTT RYAN
I think governments that take a practical approach to solving problems, based on the philosophy and values of the party, I mean, that’s what the Howard and Costello government did over the years 1996 to 2007. And it delivered results. Australians do not reward an ideological approach. So all Tony is saying is that were going to take our philosophy and values and were going to solve practical problems with it. In fact, towards the end of the Howard and Costello government, if anything, they were being criticised for not being ideological enough when it came to issues like the level of taxation. But they rigidly stuck to the point that we’re here to solve the problems of everyday Australians. That’s the path to success in Australia.
LYNDAL CURTIS
Andrew, the same thing could be said of the Hawke and Keating governments, couldn’t it? That they did some things which would have been seen, at that time, as against Labor Party ideology. But they were reforms that they thought they should pursue.
ANDREW LEIGH
Certainly there were big reforms in that era, Lyndal. So for me, I’d look back to the floating of the dollar, trade liberalisation, competition policy, enterprise bargaining. All things which are major economic reforms on which Australian society now rests.
LYNDAL CURTIS
And not ideological things of the time…
ANDREW LEIGH
Well, they’re very practical policies that have made us better off. For example, trade liberalisation has put thousands of dollars back in the pockets of ordinary Australians. But it is really striking to see the extent to which the coalition has now utterly lost the plot on economics. Seventy billion dollar black hole in their costings, refusal to use the parliamentary budget office, but a decision now to go through a private accounting firm for their costings next time round. An extraordinary attack in the last sittings at parliament on former treasury head Ken Henry who was of course appointed by Peter Costello. I mean, for all Scott’s talk about ideas there, I really do get the sense that the Liberal Party is now adrift from mainstream economics.
SCOTT RYAN
Its grand final week so I’m simply going say, you can use talking points, I’ll point to the scoreboard. And the scoreboard shows the coalition delivered 100 billion dollars of surpluses, paid off Labor’s debt, established the future fund, saw a 25% increase in real wages. You can use all the slogans you want. The truth is Labor has no credibility when it comes to serious economic reform and management.
LYNDAL CURTIS
If I could go now to a scoreboard of another type, Julia Gillard turned 50 today. Now neither of you has yet reached 40. Scott, I’ll ask you, is 50 something of a milestone?
SCOTT RYAN
Oh look, I wish the Prime Minister every happy return on her birthday. Fifty is a milestone. I’m 38, so it’s a while to go yet, but it does rush past I’ve noticed in my last few years in politics.
LYNDAL CURTIS
And Andrew, 50 something of a milestone you look at with some trepidation?
ANDREW LEIGH
Absolutely, I think the Prime Minister has earned the very brief break that she’ll be taking and a moment just to reflect that Australia is a far better country for her leadership. That we have the myschool website, Fair Work Australia, a much better industrial relations system, big reforms like putting a price on carbon. So much of that is due to the leadership of the Prime Minister.
LYNDAL CURTIS
Tony Abbott in wishing her happy birthday said he’s not sure how many more she’s going to have in the lodge. Will she see her 51st in the lodge?
ANDREW LEIGH
Its really striking, isn’t it, I mean, Peter Costello was talking about Tony Abbott as taking his leadership from Santamaria. But it’s clear that Mr Abbott has lost that aspect of grace – lost the ability to congratulate Wayne Swan on getting the world’s greatest treasurer award. Even the ability to generously wish the Prime Minister a happy 50th birthday. That sense of utter gracelessness is what’s really striking about Mr Abbott at the moment.
LYNDAL CURTIS
Scott?
SCOTT RYAN
Andrew, I saw Tony Abbott wish the Prime Minister’s birthday. I thought it was entirely sincere and I think we all wish a person reaching such a milestone their birthday, and I think its particularly graceless of you to try and assign some sort of false motive to Tony wishing the Prime Minister a happy birthday.
ANDREW LEIGH
It was the second sentence that I’m talking about there, Scott. And a moment of a birthday is a moment to be open, warm and generous, and I wish I had seen that today in the opposition leader.
LYNDAL CURTIS
But what’s wrong, I mean, where engaged, you know, you’re engaged in politics – what wrong with just mentioning that in passing?
ANDREW LEIGH
Well I guess Australians are looking for a sense of, that on the moment of someone reaching their 50th birthday, you can just for a brief second, step back from politics. But we…
SCOTT RYAN
Well Andrew, I just wish that..
ANDREW LEIGH
…we’ve seen this so so so often from the opposition leader. We saw it in Joe Hockey’s foul mouthed attack on Wayne Swan after winning the world’s greatest treasurer. There really isn’t that sense of, just for a moment, being able to put the national interest first. Never a …
SCOTT RYAN
Oh, Andrew, look, good grace is something the Labor Party only talks about when it’s in government. Because you didn’t show any such grace to John Howard or Peter Costello at similar points.
LYNDAL CURTIS
And that’s where we’ll have to leave it. Scott Ryan and Andrew Leigh, thank you very much for your time.