Topics: Budget, National School Chaplaincy Programme, higher education

E&OE…

Rafael Epstein:

We’re joined now by Senator Scott Ryan, Liberal senator for Victoria. He is also the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education, which kind of means he is like the junior education minister. Senator, forgive me for that description but it gives people an idea of your job.

Senator Scott Ryan:

No worries at all Raf, it’s great to be here.

Epstein:

If you didn’t tell the states about this, isn’t that a fail? And secondly, if most of your saves come from ripping money away from the states, you haven’t lived up to your claim to be structural budget reformers have you?

Senator Ryan:

Well, let’s put this in context, and I will start with schools. Over the next three years, we are continuing to increase the funding in schools in line with the promise we made before the last election. After that, we are increasing funding for schools and we are continuing to increase funding by both inflation and growth in enrolments. In hospitals, we are increasing funding over the next four years by seven per cent, and after that, we are increasing it by both inflation and population growth. So there is continuing funding increase from the Commonwealth.

Epstein:

But the rate of increase, the acceleration of increase, is less than it was going to be before Tuesday night. There is no doubt about that, otherwise the premiers wouldn’t be screaming.

Senator Ryan:

I think that’s an important point Raf. You mentioned earlier talk of cuts. There are no cuts. There are actually constant increases from the Commonwealth.

Epstein:

I’m not sure I said cuts, but if you are reducing the amount of money that the premiers have been expecting, it’s got to come from somewhere.

Senator Ryan:

We’ve budgeted over the next four years and so these matters are always up for discussion between the Prime Minister and the premiers and the Prime Minister has already indicated there will be both a tax white paper and a white paper into reform of the Australian Federation. So over the next four years, the most important thing is that all our states have funding certainty from the Commonwealth because …

Epstein:

I think, forgive me Scott Ryan, if those words were reassuring, the premiers wouldn’t be screaming. The simple fact is NSW and Victoria face an election before next March, you don’t. You’ve gone, ‘right, that money’s ours, you figure out your own budget’.

Senator Ryan:

Importantly, in November this year when Victoria and Dennis Napthine go to the polls – you mentioned NSW also and Mike Baird next year – over that period there is constant funding increase well above inflation in schools and hospitals.

Epstein:

You’re education, I don’t think the issue is the next four years, you went to the election saying you’d sign up for Gonski, that isn’t the issue for the premiers on education and I know they have different views on health. But the fact remains, you’re taking money from state government budgets to fix your budget bottom line and that structural reform part of my first question, your biggest save comes from ripping money away from Liberal states.

Senator Ryan:

The State Budget that was brought down by Michael O’Brien a couple of weeks ago and the budget that will be brought down in NSW later this month, they are budgeted over four years as well, so they have the constant funding increases that I mentioned earlier. But the important point that I make here is that there were promises that were made by the previous Labor government, they were promises that were utterly unfunded and never going to be delivered. We can’t keep borrowing money, we can’t keep going into budget deficit after budget deficit because that will put these very services at risk. Over this period of time, we’ve delivered on our promise we made before the election to increase funding, and after that we’ve increased funding by population growth and enrolment growth in schools. That is sustainable growth.

Epstein:

Look if I could ask you about the school chaplaincy programme? Senator Scott Ryan is with us, he is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education, that means he helps out the Education Minister Christopher Pyne. The school chaplaincy is a quarter of a billion dollars over five years, I reckon the CSIRO and the Bureau of Meteorology probably wouldn’t mind some of that money. The CSIRO is what, $146 million, the bureau is $10 million. Are you saying that chaplains, who aren’t qualified counsellors the way a psychologist is, they’re more important than the work of the CSIRO or the bureau?

Senator Ryan:

Well Raf, if you went to some of the schools with chaplains – I’ve visited a lot and you may have as well – every school I’ve visited with a school chaplain immensely values the work they do, not just for students, but often for parents and teachers as well. It is $60 million a year over four years essentially. And that will allow just under 3000 schools around Australia to voluntarily access a chaplaincy service.

Epstein:

I’m not asking you about the value of the service, what I am asking you though, if you are increasing and spending a quarter of a billion dollars on school chaplains, who aren’t qualified counsellors, is that a statement that they are more important to the nation than the really vital work that the CSIRO or the bureau do? There are any other number of cuts in the budget, but I just thought I’d mention those.

Senator Ryan:

The chaplaincy programme that the previous Labor government diluted from the Coalition government before that, expires at the end of the year. So we made a commitment during the election to maintain a chaplaincy programme. It’s not an increase in funding it is actually maintaining schools’ access to chaplains. Government is about difficult decisions.

Epstein:

Well it is an increase, the budget paper said it will provide an additional $245 million, isn’t that an additional amount?

Senator Ryan:

No. It is additional only in the sense that there was zero provided for by the previous government so the programme expired.

Epstein:

To go back to my original question, do you, as a Government, prioritise school chaplains – and most people see schools as being a religion-free zone – do you prioritise school chaplains over a whole lot of things you have cut, including CSIRO funding and Bureau of Meteorology funding?

Senator Ryan:

Yes we do Raf, and let me explain why. For all the schools that have welfare officers and welfare services, and that’s very important. The chaplaincy programme I’ve seen in schools provides a very important additional service, particularly at disadvantaged schools. It really does help with pastoral care in schools, some of them face a lot of challenges. There have been chaplains provided in areas where there have been natural disasters and they have been incredibly valued by school communities. So I actually do think they are very important because they do help our schools educate our children and build stronger communities. About the religion element too, it is important to outline that these chaplains are qualified, they are not psychologists as you mentioned, but they do have qualifications, and also …

Epstein:

The Psychologists Association isn’t too impressed with their qualifications …

Senator Ryan:

… as well as being a voluntary programme, they are not permitted to proselytise, they are not permitted to proselytise or promote any religion and they can come from any faith background.

Epstein:

If I can ask you a final higher education question? Christopher Pyne, in opposition, promised no increases in university fees. Letting universities charge whatever they like, that’s clearly a broken promise.

Senator Ryan:

What we’ve done in higher education is we’ve expanded access to sub-degree  courses to students who never had substantial Commonwealth support.

Epstein:

Yes I understand that, but this is not a policy question Minister.

Senator Ryan:

All we’ve done is allow universities to set their fees and guarantee that no student will have to pay a dollar up front. A lot of universities will fall in price and in some courses, some may well increase, but that’s a matter for the universities.

Epstein:

Is that a broken promise?

Senator Ryan:

This is a matter for the universities. All we’ve done is deregulate fees and given students access to the HECS loan scheme to ensure that, no matter what they’re background, they can access it without paying a dollar upfront.

Epstein:

So when Tony Abbott said he would adopt a position of masterful inactivity and Christopher Pyne said fees wouldn’t increase, but then universities can charge whatever they like and it’s the biggest reform since Dawkins, that’s not a broken promise?

Senator Ryan:

I think it is about dramatically expanding access to education, particularly for those who weren’t going to university, and it is also freeing up our universities to, in many cases, lower fees, as many will.

Epstein:

You don’t think that if you turned around and said, ‘look, we have to break a few more promises’ the conversation could then move on to the merits, of which there are probably many in the budget, rather than, it’s a bit like shooting fish in a barrel to be honest?

Senator Ryan:

I will let political commentators make judgements on matters like that. We made a commitment to bring the budget back into balance and make it sustainable. That is an over-arching solemn commitment that we made and that is what was tying the budget together that Joe Hockey released on Tuesday night.

Epstein:

How do you think the Budget is going down?

Senator Ryan:

I tune in and I stream from Canberra what people are saying on the radio.

Epstein:

More generally, you get feedback in your office.

Senator Ryan:

That’s true. What I’ve noticed is that the predicted wave of calls from some interest groups haven’t happened to our offices. I’ve had a lot of emails from people saying, ‘yes this will be difficult, but I see why it is necessary’. People changed the Government Raf, because they knew difficult decisions needed to be made.

Epstein:

Senator thanks for joining us.

Senator Ryan:

Thanks.