Monday, 15 April 2013
Topic: Government’s education funding
Melissa Clarke:
Hello and welcome to Capital Hill, I’m Melissa Clarke. The Government is gearing up to fight on one of its key policy fronts, education. Over the weekend the Government announced the details of its long awaited Gonski School funding reforms. The plan would see $14.5 billion dollars of extra funding over the next six years, with the Commonwealth to pay two thirds of the cost. It now has to get the States and Territories to stump-up billions of their own, defend cuts to the tertiary sector to help pay for it and to get enough Parliamentary support to see the legalisation through.
To delve into the details, I’m joined from Perth by Labor Senator Glenn Sterle and in Melbourne we have Liberal Senator Scott Ryan. Thanks for both being with us this evening.
Scott Ryan:
G’day Melissa
Glenn Sterle:
Good afternoon Melissa
Melissa Clarke:
Before we get into it, let’s have a listen to Prime Minster, Julia Gillard, who visited a school in Canberra today to promote the Government’s plan, now it’s something that she is going to do for the coming weeks, between not just this week until this coming Friday, but right up until Budget time because she has given the State Premiers and Territory Ministers up until June to agree to this plan, so it’s a big sell for Julia Gillard and it started today at a school in Canberra in the northern suburbs.
(AUDIO: Prime Minster Julia Gillard)
Melissa Clarke:
A determined sounding Prime Minster there. Glenn Sterle the Government has a lot to get this through to become reality, just to get the States and Territories onboard, trying to get it through Parliament even once you get to that sort of agreement there’s not that many sitting days left before the end of the Parliamentary seating year. Is this an impossible task?
Glenn Sterle:
I don’t think so. If anyone can do it, it’s Prime Minster Gillard but Melissa I have to ask you, what is there not to like about this, what is there not to come out and fully support? Anything that provides quality education for our kids for many generations to come, I tell you what I’ll be standing shoulder to shoulder with the Prime Minister and I’m looking forward to it.
Melissa Clarke:
Scott Ryan I’m sure you can think of things that are not to like about this package?
Scott Ryan:
Well let’s get to the truth about the numbers and Glenn and the Prime Minster should own up to this. They have cut $11 billion for education overall over the coming period. They are planning to spend $9.5 billion in the announcements made yesterday, not $14.5 billion, %9.5 billion. So they are saving $1.5 Billion out of education, what they are doing with this plan is they’re basically promising another people’s money. The Commonwealth is stumping-up $9.5 billion which is less than they would stump-up if the current arrangement stayed in place and then they’re saying this will only happen on the condition that someone else puts in money, which they’re then claiming as their own.
Melissa Clarke:
Certainly that has been some of the concern raised by the State Premiers and I do think we should go into detail about that later on but Glenn Sterle, I do want to ask you how important, from a bigger picture perspective I guess, how important is getting agreement on this reform and getting it through. How important is that to Labor’s re-election chances?
Glenn Sterle:
Well Melissa, two words that come together whether there is an election year or non-election year are education and Labor. Let’s look at the realities this is quite a nonsense, the Federal Government is going to put in two dollars for every one dollar from the States and Scott talks about spending other people’s money. Melissa it’s not what you want to talk about today but I’ve just come through a State election here, where we had the Premier, Colin Barnett, promising to build billions of dollars worth of infrastructure in WA with Federal Government money. So, Scotty you need to check with your mates over here in the Liberal Party about false statements. Melissa this is a nation building project.
Melissa Clarke:
But Glenn Sterle, Scott Ryan does make a fair point and there are many State Governments around the country that have budgets in deficits and are facing similar issues to the Federal Government and won’t necessary want to have their spending priorities dictated to by the Federal Government.
Glenn Sterle:
Melissa, there’s also another mistruth here. No school will be worse off; under the Labor Government funding has increased hugely compared to under the Liberal Howard Government and funding will continue to increase. Here is WA its $300 million coming to WA and I’ve heard all the whinging about, why can’t we have more and all this sort of stuff. Well because probably here in WA we have been doing it a lot better than other States for a while, so I’m quite proud of that. Melissa, this is up to the States, the States Premiers, who love to play politics all the time, it’s a fantastic past time here in WA – let’s kick the living daylights out of Canberra. Well, Premier Barnett needs to go out here at tell people why $300 million is not good for schools in WA. I am the patron of a lower socio-economic high school out in Forrestfield, Darling Range Sports Collage, a brilliant school and I tell you now. I would love to see funds flowing to Darling Range or any other school in Western Australia. So, Melissa we need to get back to the truth here.
Scott Ryan:
Melissa, the truth is the Government has had the Gonski report for years now. This is all about Julia Gillard trying to create a false fight with the people who actually run schools – the States. Julia Gillard desperation to have something to talk about means this has everything to do with being an election year.
Melissa Clarke:
Well Scott Ryan, if this is just about having a fight and it’s posturing, if Julia Gillard does get the States and Territories to agree to the plan, why won’t the Coalition promise to support it through the Parliament if all the States and Territories do manage to strike a deal with the Federal Government, which they are happy with. Why wouldn’t you back that?
Scott Ryan:
Before we get to ifs and hypothetical’s lets actually examine the details of this and find out whether any schools are worse off, parents are worse off and students are worse off.
Melissa Clarke:
You’ve just told us they’re worse off. So why do we need to examine it?
Scott Ryan:
What I said was that under the current indexation formula they would be better off. Indexation grew by 6% a year over the last decade on average. What the Commonwealth is promising, I understand, is just below 5% growth a year. So let’s actually look at a detailed analysis once the States, the Independences and the Catholic Schools have had a chance to look at how this will impact on their school communities.
Melissa Clarke:
Now Glenn Sterle was talking about Colin Barnett’s reaction to the announcement and certainly a number of the State Premiers have had differing views in the immediate aftermath of the announcement. Let’s hear some of the views of the Premiers in the last 24 hours.
(AUDIO: State Premiers)
Melissa Clarke:
Glenn Sterle you had some words for Colin Barnett a little bit earlier. He did go on to say, in that press conference, that under the Gonski school model that’s being proposed, that Government would be forced in percentage terms to spend more of its State Government revenue on Catholic and Independent schools than on State Government schools and that he doesn’t want to do that. Wouldn’t changing that ratio be contrary to Labor’s aims in these whole reforms anyway?
Glenn Sterle:
The whole idea here Melissa is to provide every opportunity for Australian kids and let’s talk about Western Australian kids, to get the best opportunity they can to get the best education throughout their formative years. Now Mr Barnett, look seriously Mr Barnett has been an absolute A1 performer in bashing anything that comes out of Canberra. Melissa I’m not trying to avoid your question but this is the same Premier who went out there and bagged the living daylights out of the Federal Government about the GST spread, his own mate Mr Tony Abbott has come out and knocked him on the head – it’s just typical Mr Barnett.
Melissa Clarke:
If Colin Barnett makes the point that as a proportion of their own spending, they will have to direct more of it to Catholic and Independent Schools isn’t contrary to Labor’s values and it’s stated aim in the Gonski reform which is to help needy schools?
Glenn Sterle:
Our aim is to help those schools who need it. Now if there are other schools that show, for some reason, that they’re not up to the SRS, well if that’s where it has got to be spent in the Catholic or Independent – I don’t differentiate private, public or independent. It doesn’t come on my radar nor should it on the Premier. This is about Western Australian kids so Mr Barnett can go out there and explain to Western Australian parents why he doesn’t want to assist Western Australian kids in getting the best education.
Melissa Clarke:
Scott Ryan can I ask you, do you agree with the philosophy behind the Gonski School funding reforms of trying to bring those schools in disadvantaged areas or schools that aren’t getting as much funding up to a nationally consistent level. Do you think there is a need to direct more funding nationally to those areas to get them up to a national level, even if it means WA or South Australia might not get as much as they like?
Scott Ryan:
Well let me just defend Colin Barnett there for a second. I am Victorian but Colin has got a great story to tell. The only State School system in the country since 1977 that has got students leaving non-Government schools and coming to State-run-schools and State-managed-schools is the Western Australian State School system. That is a phenomenal achievement and Colin Barnett the guy that’s running the most successful State School system in the country, using that as a measure, who actually employs teachers who run schools should be listened too. The Commonwealth Government doesn’t actually employ a teacher. The Commonwealth Government doesn’t run a school. Quite frankly, when you hear Denis Napthine talking about needing time to investigate this, when you hear Colin Barnett expressing concern about the impact on his State’s school system, those are concerns that should be listened too. They run the schools the Commonwealth doesn’t.
Melissa Clarke:
Part of the Gonski funding reform is a significant amount of money which is being funded by changes to Superannuation, but of course a fair chunk, billions, from changes to funding of tertiary education, which has the sector very concerned. I wanted to show you a little bit of Fred Hilmer from the Group of 8 universities grouping and his response to the cuts that were announced on Saturday.
(AUDIO: Fred Hilmer)
Melissa Clarke:
Fred Hilmer there. Glenn Sterle, how do you counter the argument that you are robbing Peter to pay Paul because you are moving money from one level of public education to another level of public education?
Glenn Sterle:
Melissa quiet clearly we are talking a couple of billion dollars, we’re still going to fund universities. We have had record growth of universities under Labor Governments, the last two in particular since the Howard years. I don’t think it’s unfair one bit to pump more money into kids, all the kids have got to go to Primary School and High School but not all kids go to university, but let’s just get this in context – we are not cutting out their funding, we are asking them to slow down, slow down their growth. I just think it’s a non-argument and I’m happy to get attacked by the universities because I have no doubt they will start the hate mail, so bring it on. I’ll defend spending on primary and high schools.
Melissa Clarke:
Scott Ryan very briefly…
Scott Ryan:
What’s happened to universities should make everyone who hears about promises for funding form Labor very nervous. You know you are going to get cut and your promises won’t be delivered.
Glenn Sterle:
Scott that is a bit rough coming from you under the Howard years mate, come on. It’s a bit rough.
Melissa Clarke:
I thought we had got to the end, we are at the end there just as well given we are getting into this heated debate. Scott Ryan in Melbourne and Glenn Sterle in Perth thank-you for joining us on Capital Hill
Scott Ryan:
Thank-you Melissa
Glenn Sterle:
Thank-you
Melissa Clarke:
And that’s all for this evening. Capital Hill will be back tomorrow night.