RN Drive Interview – with Patricia Karvelas
75th Anniversary of the Liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau
28 Jan 2020
(Check against delivery)
PATRICIA KARVELAS: 3000 people have gathered at the notorious Auschwitz prison camp in Poland to mark the 75th anniversary of its liberation by Soviet troops at the close of World War II. Six million Jews were slaughtered by Germany’s Nazi regime during the Holocaust – more than a million of them at Auschwitz. Some two hundred survivors attended the ceremony calling on the world to adopt the ‘Eleventh Commandment’: thou shalt not be indifferent. The Senate President Scott Ryan represented the Australian Government and I spoke to him a short time ago. Senator Scott Ryan, welcome.
SENATOR THE HON. SCOTT RYAN: Thanks for having me, Patricia.
KARVELAS: The Holocaust stands as one of the worst crimes against humanity, ever. Very few other events come close. Why was it important for you to represent Australia at this event?
RYAN: Well, having studied it and being familiar with it and having met Holocaust survivors, I think it’s unique in its depravity. There are three things that stand out about the Holocaust, I think one of which is the poisonous racial ideology of the Nazis. The second element is is the clinical and industrial scale of the organised mass murder that has never occurred on a similar scale before. But probably most tragically, it was specifically targeted at the elimination of a race of people, the Jewish people. Other people suffered, but they were the prime victims. Australia has provided a home to many survivors of the Holocaust. It is an important part of our education curriculum and I was pleased to represent Australia at the commemoration at Auschwitz-Birkenau yesterday Polish-time.
KARVELAS: What was the mood at the event like? Obviously some significant global leaders and representatives coming together for such a significant event.
RYAN: Well we heard from the President of Poland, we heard from four survivors who offered different perspectives as well as their own personal ones, the museum director and the head of the World Jewish Congress. And I also met with an Australian survivor who was present Mrs Yvonne Edelmen from Sydney and her family on Saturday – a couple of days before the commemoration. It is interesting, I have always been struck, and I have met several Holocaust survivors in my time, of those who I have met, particularly those involved in educating younger people about what happened, about telling their personal stories. As Mrs Edelman said to me: ‘We must remain positive’. We must make sure that history is never forgotten. Importantly, I think, one of the messages from yesterday is we can’t just get lost in the numbers, horrific though they are. Each one of those 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust is an individual story – one and a half million children. We need to ensure we do not lose track of that individuality when we are dealing with the horrific scale and horrific numbers involved in this slaughter.
KARVELAS: Anyone who has been to Auschwitz, and I have, will tell you that it is a very chilling space. It is very difficult to explain just what a chilling space it is. What struck you most about it?
RYAN: Well this is my second visit; I came personally 18 years ago about the same time of the year. It was different on this occasion because it was a formal commemoration but I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. It is difficult to find the words to describe visiting a place where such unspeakable evil was done on a large scale but also, remember, by individuals to individuals. To see the photos of parents being separated from children, spouses being separated, friends being separated. To hear the stories of the guides about what was done by some people, by the SS, to other human beings. Then to put it into comparison of size, the size of Auschwitz II – Birkenau which was the second camp that was built by the Nazis as the main extermination camp is the one with the horrific and haunting photo of the railway going through the gate, that is roughly the size of the Central Business District of Melbourne. The scale of it, the size of it, the number of people who were killed, the number of people who were treated so inhumanly is impossible to comprehend and very difficult to describe.
KARVELAS: They were around 200 people who survived Auschwitz at the event and you’ve already mentioned the survivors that spoke. How did you feel listening to their stories? It must be so difficult to revisit that place.
RYAN: Their bravery in being able to tell their stories has always struck me. I find it difficult to comprehend but at the same time so admirable that so many of them have committed their lives to ensuring that this horrific story, this most horrific moment in their lives are told to future generations. People like ourselves who have had the benefit of meeting them. One of the key messages of course from yesterday, the 75th anniversary of liberation, the survivors who I met were child survivors or very, very young. Teenagers were the oldest ones. This could be the last significant anniversary where we have large numbers of survivors and of course, one of the things that was emphasised at the event by both the officials and the survivors was the story must be told. We can’t ever allow the facts of what occurred here to be denied or even to become contestable at the same time as I heard Mrs Edelman say we must remain positive. We must also be faithful to their memory by ensuring that these facts are never forgotten and they are not contested in the world of fake news or malicious evil messages being spread by others.
KARVELAS: The message from survivors was that the Holocaust could easily happen again. How significant is it that people who lived through an event like that in the world that they worry that those lessons are being forgotten?
RYAN: There were a couple of elements of that mentioned yesterday one of which was the very disturbing trend of rising anti-Semitism that is present in many parts of world. Whether that be the awful example of the Nazi symbol being flown in Victoria in recent weeks; which is unimaginable to me, how someone could do that. Or the attacks, the physical attacks, the verbal attacks that we see reported in parts of the world, including in our own cities. So that was one element.
The other element was one of the four survivors gave a very moving speech, about how his experience in Germany in the thirties, was every time a law was passed prohibiting Jewish people from doing something, and I think the examples he referred to were [using] swimming pools and park benches, and going shopping, they could accommodate it, but he made the point that it ended with the Holocaust – by excluding some.
So I think there are those two elements, that we must always remember what happened, and that as was pointed out yesterday, the Holocaust and Auschwitz-Birkenau was the end point, it didn’t – to quote one of the speakers – drop out of the sky.
KARVELAS: You mentioned this example in our own country, in Victoria. In fact I broadcast from Melbourne, you live in Melbourne, it’s where we live. This flag being flown; what should be the appropriate response to that? There has been a push to make it illegal to fly the Nazi flag. What’s your view on this?
RYAN: Look I saw the news about it before I left; I don’t want to get into it, I haven’t given that particular matter a lot of thought. I’m, to be honest, horrified that anyone thinks it’s appropriate to fly the symbol. And one of the things that occurred to me when I saw the news article a couple of weeks ago was, 20 years ago it was unimaginable someone would do that.
KARVELAS: And yet it’s happening. In fact antisemitism is on the rise again, particularly in Europe. French president Emmanuel Macron says it’s a problem for his nation. What do you think is driving this?
RYAN: Well as it was once described to me, when I studied an element of this at university it’s in many ways ‘the world’s oldest hatred’ and that’s why it’s so important to always lance the boil when we hear it; and one of the points we heard from another survivor yesterday was I think , one of the other survivors, who’d written about Auschwitz said the Eleventh Commandment was “Don’t be indifferent”.
So when you hear something that’s anti-Semitic, speak up. Don’t let it slide, don’t let it pass by. And that applies equally to something you hear that is racist. And there’s something unique about the conspiracy theories that revolve around, and drive, antisemitism that makes it in my view slightly different to other forms of racial hatred. And that’s why – because of what it led to; because of how old that racial hatred is – it’s so important that we lance the boil and address it whenever it rises.
KARVELAS: Do you see other countries where the targeting of people on the basis of their ethnicity or religion could once again lead to genocide? Is this something we need to be alive to right now?
RYAN: I’m not going to claim familiarity with all of the tragic elements of racial hatred that exist around the world. I came here, and I’m particularly familiar with, the Holocaust, I think it is unique for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Because it was so industrialised, so based on racial ideology and literally targeted at the elimination of an entire race of people. Which, in my understanding, we have never seen before, and will hopefully never again see.
It is a reminder that one must always keep in mind that racial hatred, whipping it up, blaming and judging people based on the characteristics of their race, their creed, their colour, their sexuality, their gender; can lead to violence. Whether that be, as I said earlier, we must also remember it happens on an individual level.
Each one of these stories, each time we read about attacks, it’s not just against a group of people, although it can be as well, but it’s also on an individual. Each one of these one and a half million people killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau was an individual, and there’s an individual story there.
KARVELAS: Does a relatively stable democratic country like Australia have a responsibility to speak out? Do we speak out often enough? Do we need to play a really active role here?
RYAN: Well I think we do. We are now members of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. Yesterday was also the 25th anniversary of the Declaration of International Holocaust Remembrance Day by the UN, which occurred on the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau. And I think Australia: we have a policy that proudly takes in people and grants resettlement to those fleeing persecution.
We started doing that a great deal after World War II, we provided a home to many people who survived the Holocaust and did not want to go back to Europe. And we’ve done it in the generations since. So I think Australia has got a particularly proud record of providing refuge, and speaking out on these matters.
KARVELAS: Scott Ryan thank you so much for joining us.
RYAN: Thanks for having me Patricia.
KARVELAS: That’s Senator Scott Ryan, who was Australia’s official representative at the Auschwitz prison camp in Poland marking the 75th anniversary of its liberation by Soviet troops at the close of World War II. This is RN Drive.
[ENDS]
The original audio is available on the ABC Radio National website: