E&OE…
KIERAN GILBERT
Thanks for your company this morning, with me now Liberal frontbencher Senator Scott Ryan and Labor frontbencher Matt Thistlethwaite. Gents, good to see you both.
I guess on this issue of the refugee crisis we are seeing some of the strongest calls from your own colleagues within the Liberal Party – Ewen Jones, Craig Laundy, Mike Baird and your own fellow Victorian as well, Opposition Leader Matthew Guy – very strong in terms of calling for numbers, some of them a lot more than even what Labor is suggesting.
SCOTT RYAN
I think that shows the diversity of views in the Coalition Party Room and our historic commitment to humanitarian causes. What the Government is doing is actually taking a considered approach as these are very difficult decisions. We have to ensure that not only are we doing what the UNHCR most needs, not only do they have the facilities to select people – because we do allow them to select people who are most at risk for this program – but also the services that are so important to resettling people in Australia are in place as well as the consideration of measures that we did for the Kosovars in the late 1990s of whether we do another option such as provide Safe Haven Temporary Protection.
GILBERT
And what do you think of what the Government has done thus far in despatching the Immigration Minister, he has met with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees last night, he is in Geneva now and he is going to hold another day of talks – well, tomorrow their time – in terms of getting briefings on exactly what the Government can do to help.
MATT THISTLETHWAITE
It is sad that it has taken leadership from Bill Shorten, Mike Baird and backbenchers like Craig Laundy to prod the Prime Minister into taking action. We welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment to take more Syrian refugees, but it should be an increase in the intake. Over the course of the last week or so, Labor has been consulting with settlement service providers, with various communities…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
That could happen though; the Government is keeping that option open.
THISTLETHWAITE
And we hope it does, we have offered a solution; we have offered this on a bipartisan basis, we have asked the Prime Minister to convene an emergency meeting with state leaders, with the Commonwealth, with community organisations to look to take an additional ten thousand Syrian refugees to ensure that Australia does its bit. We believe, based on those consultations…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
You’re saying that the Prime Minister has needed prodding, this has been going on for years, this crisis, it has been a four year civil war, Labor was in office for some of the time and now this policy comes out of thin air yesterday and you say that the Government needed prodding. Surely Labor should cop some flack here too?
THISTLETHWAITE
And when we were in government we responded, we increased the number of refugees that we took from Syria, we devoted a hundred million dollars to humanitarian effort on the ground and we have been doing so in consult with the United Nations’ High Commissioner for Refugees.
GILBERT
You said ten thousand yesterday, the point I guess is, isn’t it rich though, ten thousand fine that argument is fine, but you have others like Mike Baird and Kennett who say it needs to be more and now you are saying that the Prime Minister needs to cop criticism for being prodded, you’ve needed to be prodded by the shocking image of the toddler. Isn’t that the case, that’s why you have acted?
THISTLETHWAITE
The situation became much more urgent over the course of the last week because of the image of that poor boy on the beach…
(Interrupted)
RYAN
Are you saying that the image is what makes it urgent?
THISTLETHWAITE
The images of people flooding across the borders, the calls from European nations that have come over the course of the last two weeks for people to do more, the calls from the state premiers for the Commonwealth to do more. Labor has listened to all of those concerns, we have worked with community groups, we have worked with settlement experts of the course of the last week, and we have come up with a plan.
GILBERT
Let me ask you about some comments that one of your colleagues in the Senate made, Cory Bernardi he said: in relation to the toddler, that the boy’s death was not related to the humanitarian crisis in Syria. Now, look, I find these comments absolutely extraordinary and quite offensive. The family was from Kobani, and we have all seen the images of Kobani, to have the a member of the upper house to make this, what I find ridiculous comment that it has nothing to do with the humanitarian crisis in Syria, fine they might have been in Turkey, but how does he know the way that they have been living in Turkey? A couple of Facebook photos, and he makes this judgement from the upper house of our Parliament and it is offensive.
RYAN
Well, I haven’t seen the comments…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
I have just read them to you.
RYAN
Yes, but I think context is also important. It is an important distinction to make, because these are terrible decisions that the officials of the UNHCR have to make, when you have got millions of people – nearly two million in Turkey, over a million in Lebanon – there is no prospect of that number of people being resettled by more advanced nations because Australia, with our contribution is still the highest per capita taker of refugees from the UNHCR. So, it is important that, just as the UNHCR does, that we distinguish between those who are at genuine immediate risk, those whose personal safety and security is at risk right now as the civil war, and ISIS, and the Assad forces fight in Syria. There are those in camps, and I do not dismiss the unpleasantness of life in those and the aspiration of those to have a better life for their children…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
Sometimes the security of the camps as well. As you say, 1.2 million in Lebanon, millions more elsewhere, the point I make to you is: how can it be described as an opportunistic cycle by Cory Bernardi when he has no idea of the way these individuals are living.
RYAN
I haven’t actually seen…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
How can it be described as that?
RYAN
I have not seen all of the comments, the context of contributions in the Chamber is important…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
If someone comes from Kobani, this border town with Turkey and Syria, it has been annihilated, smashed by these disgraceful IS…
RYAN
…barbarians
GILBERT
How can they not be called refugees, these people, regardless of whether they have found short term shelter somewhere? They might be living in a slum for all we know, we don’t know, we don’t know what their security is, yet we have had one of your colleagues in the Liberal Party stand up and say this is an opportunistic cycle.
RYAN
What I seek to do, Kieran, and as I said I haven’t seen the whole address and I haven’t seen the context so I make no judgment, what I seek to do is as much as we can in a country like this is exhibit some empathy. There are some difficult choices we have to make, no matter the number we take we are not going to solve the problems on the border of Syria. We have to make some judgement between those who may have some temporary but unpleasant security, who may have legitimate aspirations to move to Europe and have a better life, aspirations that I can imagine someone could have for their family and their children, versus those who might be in very vulnerable situations in these camps because they are not always pleasant places, versus those at immediate personal risk. So, I think we do, just as the UNHCR does, look at the levels of risk within people who have fled for their own security, and they are difficult decisions.
GILBERT
Okay, and as the Government says in terms of the UNHCR, the Minister, Mr Dutton there now seeking that advice as Senator Ryan suggests, your reaction to his comments this morning, which I think are pretty reasonable unlike his counterpart Senator Bernardi.
THISTLETHWAITE
Well, Cory Bernardi’s comments are outrageous and the only heartening thing I think you can take out of what he said was that he doesn’t reflect mainstream Australia. We saw the images overnight of thousands of people coming out in capital cities across Australia to show their support for more Syrian refugees, and in particular to pay respect to that poor young boy who drowned on the beach and many others who have suffered in this conflict. Cory Bernardi said that people were taking advantage of an emotive issue, how can you not be moved by that image. I have a daughter who is around the same age as that young boy and you see something like that and it just absolutely breaks your heart. It has, unfortunately, become the image that defines this conflict, we cannot ignore that, but I take heart that Cory Bernardi does not represent Australian values and Australian beliefs on this issue.
GILBERT
To be fair, as well, the Prime Minister’s language and his response as well has been very much in tune with what you’re saying in terms of the image, that image, but also the images of hundreds of thousands of these individuals fleeing persecution or refugee camps being overwhelmed, whatever it is at this immediate moment, whatever it is the vast bulk of them are refugees.
RYAN
And the truth is we also have to, while a picture can crystallised, and everyone – particularly those who are parents – saw that photo and it was tragic to look at, it does crystallise people’s view. There also needs to be an acceptance, there are some people out there who I think are using this for political purposes. I mean, Labor’s contribution to this in the past was to reduce the number we could take on board because the people smuggling problem. We have maintained public support for our refugee resettlement program, which will allow us to the Syrian community overseas what we did to the Kosovars and what we have done for decades before to people at risk. Maintaining that security is important to maintaining public trust.
GILBERT
I guess the other thing is as well, just quickly as we only have a minute and a half left, the other side of this as the Prime Minister rightly points out is the force, the action to try and smash IS or Daesh, whatever you call them, in Syria and it looks inevitable and I think entirely reasonable that the Government authorises those strikes because that border is only an arbitrary line right now.
RYAN
Well the National Security Committee, as I understand, will be meeting later today. The truth is that you cannot solve a refugee problem unless you actually solve the reason people are fleeing from their homes. That is the perennial challenge; we need to stop millions of people because there is no real prospect of resettling that many people.
GILBERT
Matt Thistlethwaite, it seems Labor has some questions, but surely you are not going to oppose the airstrikes going into Syria?
THISTLETHWAITE
We all support stopping the spread of Daesh, that is why we supported the actions in Iraq, they were backed by international law and at the invitation of the Iraqi Government, we need to be comfortable that Australia is not taking any action that is illegal under international law and that is a discussion we will have over the next couple of days.
GILBERT
Alright. Gentlemen thanks for the chat as always, good to see you both. Quick break on AM Agenda, back in just a moment.
(ENDS)