Topics: Newspoll, Tony Abbott’s comments about the Treasurer, Bill Shorten and the royal commission

E&OE…

DAVID LIPSON

Here in the Canberra studio is the new Assistant Cabinet Secretary, Senator Scott Ryan, and joining us from Sydney is the Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Foreign Affairs, Matt Thistlethwaite. Thank you both very much for joining us. First to you, Scott Ryan, a big turnaround in the Newpoll. But fifty one, forty nine is the two-party preferred number so still a fair way from being comfortable for the Coalition. Does this justify the removal of Tony Abbott?

SCOTT RYAN

Well David, I think I’ve been here with you and Kieran on many Tuesday mornings, and Matt and I’ve never really commented on polls. I’ll let you and Phil talk about those in detail as you just have.

LIPSON

Malcolm Turnbull’s not afraid to talk about polls.

RYAN

Well I did notice that last night, that’s a prime ministerial prerogative. He did point out that they were a snapshot in time. They don’t guide what the government does, they don’t guide what I do. I think what we saw yesterday, and what I’ve seen over the weekend, is that the Australian people are very keen to see what the new government’s priorities are.

LIPSON

The polls were used as a justification, part justification, for removing Tony Abbott. So how can you say that they don’t guide the government?

RYAN

They don’t guide what the government does, they don’t guide government policy, they don’t guide what I do. And I’m not going to recount the events of last week, I think they’ve been covered in substantial detail. I think what the Australian people are interested in, especially with the new ministry being sworn in yesterday which has a lot of new faces as well as a lot of experienced hands in key portfolio; I think they’re interested in seeing what this Government’s going to do address the needs and aspirations of Australians right around the country.

LIPSON

Matt Thistlethwaite, a huge slump in Bill Shorten’s personal numbers as preferred prime minister; he’s breaking a six year record as we heard Phil Hudson say there in terms of hitting lows. Is Labor worried?

THISTLETHWAITE

No we’re not, David. Look, all new leaders get a bounce and anyone other than Malcolm Turnbull is going to get a bounce from these polls. I think you need to look at what Bill Shorten’s achieved over the last couple of years. Firstly, he’s united the Labor Party; we’re now focussed purely on policy and we’re doing a good job in developing a number of policies that’ll take our nation forward. He’s also announced, already, five or six key policies in key areas talking about jobs of the future and how they are positioning Australia to take advantage of the information technology revolution that’s coming. But also he’s effectively knocked off a prime minister; he got rid of this government’s disastrous first budget, and forced the government to change prime ministers in the middle of an election campaign and a by-election. I think that’s a significant achievement that Bill needs a bit of credit for.

LIPSON

Ok, well we did hear from the former prime minister Tony Abbott for the first time really in an interview since the leadership spill. It was to a Daily Telegraph reporter and he levelled claims at Scott Morrison and in fact hit back at the claims from Scott Morrison last week that Mr Morrison had indeed, he said, informed the Prime Minister’s office of a potential move against Tony Abbott. This was Tony Abbott after coming out of the surf at Manly. Ok we don’t quite have those comments for you, but we will play them in a moment. Scott Morrison, I should say Scott Ryan, you were on the inside of plans to remove Tony Abbott, did Scott Morrison act with loyalty at all times to the former prime minister?

RYAN

Look I think last week was a very difficult week for the Liberal Party. Last week was a very difficult week particularly for the former prime minister and those close to him. In difficult weeks like that I think that it’s entirely understandable that both Scott and Tony Abbott are of the view that reflect what they said to the media; I’ve seen reports about what the former Prime Minister said covered in today’s papers and, of course, Scott Morrison made clear late last week what he’d done. Is it possible that a message wasn’t passed on? Entirely possible. Scott Morrison said he contacted the office, he didn’t claim he’d spoken to the Prime Minister. I think it was a very difficult week, it was a week that some people will take a while to get over some bruises and I don’t disregard that at all. But I think we can take that both men were being honest, but sometimes messages don’t get passed on or they get mixed.

LIPSON

Does it indicate something deeper within the government? More of a challenge for Malcolm Turnbull to unite the Party once again?

RYAN

I think being sensitive to the feelings of all our colleagues is something that is a high priority for everyone, from the prime Minister down. I know it’s a priority for myself. I’m not going to pretend last week wasn’t a difficult week, it was, and it was a difficult week amongst friends as much as it was amongst colleagues. So that’s a priority for the leadership and every member of the Liberal Party regardless of any media reports.

LIPSON

Well we do have those comments now from Tony Abbott, let’s recap.

(Audio recording of Tony Abbott)

Now Matt Thistlethwaite, Labor seems to be gloating about the removal of Tony Abbott. Is there any sympathy at all for him? Especially after what Labor went through over the past six years or so.

THISTLETHWAITE

Well, these are always difficult things for the people involved. And there are families involved in this, so there’s no doubt that it’s been a difficult period for Tony Abbott and, to be honest, I think the Australian people are quite sick of prime ministers being removed in those circumstances. And I take the point that Labor was involved in that in our last period in government; but we listened to what the Australian people said, and we reformed and we changed our processes of electing our leader. It appears that the Government hasn’t heeded that message, and the other thing I think here is that these are pretty scathing comments about a senior member of the Turnbull Cabinet; our nations new treasurer. And the characteristic of this government of the last two years has been the chaos, division and dysfunction; and these comments here I think are very dangerous because they’re a pretty good indicator that some of that chaos and division is going to continue in this Turnbull Government.

LIPSON

Okay, a quick break here on AM Agenda. After the break we’re going to look at the substance of the government’s policy direction. Stay with us.

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LIPSON

You’re watching AM Agenda, Scott Ryan and Matt Thistlethwaite are still with me. Scott Ryan, reports this morning that Peter Dutton the Immigration Minister has actually been dropped from the National Security Committee, why is that?

RYAN

I have heard the reports; I am not familiar with the detail. I understand the reports on radio this morning were that he is not going to be a permanent member of the NSC but will be seconded as required and as I understand it that has been the case in the past.  Occasionally the minister for that portfolio has been on the NSC, occasionally they haven’t, I have never served on it so I cannot speak from experience, and if I was I wouldn’t publically. But that is the report and I haven’t been able to ascertain if it is true or not.

LIPSON

Is immigration still considered to be a national security issue though?

RYAN

The report, which I expect if it were true, said the Minister would be seconded as needed. That is the case for all ministers when an issue that is relevant comes before a Cabinet sub-committee. Occasionally, for example, there has in the past been a communications related issue and that would see a communications minister seconded to the National Security Committee. The membership of the committee is based on the person, and portfolios are called in as needed. So I don’t think, if it is true, anything in particular should be read into it.

LIPSON

Matt Thistlethwaite, Operation Sovereign Borders has been crucial in the Government’s successful efforts to stop asylum seeker boats coming to Australia. Do you think, does Labor think it is actually a good idea to have the Immigration Minister within the National Security Committee, with immigration treated as a national security issue?

THISTLETHWAITE

We certainly do David, and these are really concerning reports. Border protection is one of the specific focusses of the National Security Committee, it is written into that committee’s mandate and to have the Minister for Immigration and Border Protection not sit on that committee is deeply concerning. I think Malcolm Turnbull needs to explain why this change has been made, has he downgraded the focus of that particular minister and the interaction with the National Security Committee? Or is it just because of his personal dislike of Peter Dutton? The Prime Minister needs to explain this.

LIPSON

Is that right Scott Ryan?

RYAN

David, it’s a media report and as I said it has not been confirmed. I don’t think anyone is going to take seriously the Labor Party criticising the Coalition for not taking border security seriously, after all we are the ones who reinstituted it after the chaos of the Labor years. It remains a core commitment of the Government; it remains a core achievement of the Government. Labor can complain all they want, their credibility on this is all in tatters.

LIPSON

Let’s look to tax reform and the South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill in the Financial Review today urging Labor to support an increased GST. Matt Thistlethwaite, what is Federal Labor’s response to that?

THISTLETHWAITE

We can understand why Jay is looking at reform of the tax system. He is one of the states that have had a large number, billions of dollars ripped from the state budget from health and education. In total, across the nation $80 billion has been ripped by this Government from health and education, so those states are looking to make up some of that revenue shortfall. Labor has been very clear about our principles on tax reform, we have said that we are up for a discussion on tax reform, but it has to be fair. And if you talk about increasing the GST that will disproportionally impact on the poor and low paid in our community. You are asking them, effectively you are saying to the poor people and middle income Australia: we want you to pay more for your electricity, for your bus trips, for your petrol, for your repairs and maintenance to your home, but we will let off people who are earning more than $100 000 as an income on a superannuation balance of more than $1 million, we won’t ask them to pay any more tax. That’s unfair, it is ridiculous.

LIPSON

What if compensation is offered to those low and middle income families that you talk about, with the GST?

THISTLETHWAITE

What you mean like the compensation that was offered for the carbon price?

LIPSON

Yeah.

THISTLETHWAITE

We believe that you disproportionately impacting on those people with an up-front cost, that is unfair. A much better way to focus on tax reform is to look at where the large concessions in the economy are. They are all around high end superannuation, and over time if we do not do something about them, they will completely swallow and quadruple the cost of the aged pension. It is a much better approach if you talk about economic growth and productivity in a global sense, to target those tax concessions and ensure that those people on lower incomes have the biggest and best possible spending capacity to ensure that they are spending in our economy, because there is a larger proportion of them and that we are creating jobs in that sector of the economy. It is not just about the fairness argument, it is also about promoting and boosting economic growth and doing that fairly.

LIPSON

Senator Ryan, the Prime Minister hasn’t ruled anything in or out. It does open him up to attacks like those we have just heard, but it does also open up a broader discussion, for example Jay Weatherill also urging your side of politics to rethink the generous tax concessions on superannuation.

RYAN

There was so much mangled economics there with what Matt said that I just need to correct a few facts. The $80 billion myth is a myth that Labor has been propagating because health and education funding to every state continues to go up, it goes up more slowly because of the unsustainable budget situation we inherited from Labor. That growth had to be reduced because it was being done with borrowed money. When Matt and yourself then just discussed the impact of the carbon tax, the carbon tax’s impact on the household budget is very similar to the GST, except the carbon tax is more destructive for exports because it is also a tax on exports, whereas the GST is zero-rated for exports. So, Matt can’t actually complain about the household impact of a consumption tax like that. What the Prime Minister said last night, I think is a very responsible step, we are interested in tax reform not just simply tax increases. We cannot keep increasing the tax burden on the productive sector of the economy without looking at efficiencies in government spending, and efficiencies in the way we do things. We are not going to simply increase taxes to allow other levels of government to constantly increase tax, but at the same time the Prime Minister very responsibly said: we are not going to play the rule in rule out game. Yes, we will allow Matt there to be hysterical, but I think the Australian people want a more serious discussion of these issues. They want a discussion that is deliberative, they want to know how it is going to impact upon them and they want governments to explain themselves, and that is what this Government is going to do.

LIPSON

On the GST, can we expect a lot more discussion, like you say on that, as we lead up, as you describe it, major tax reform?

RYAN

As the Prime Minister said, he is going to make this a priority, he has brought the Assistant Treasurer, Kelly O’Dwyer into Cabinet as the Minister for Small Business as well, and there will be more to say about that over coming weeks and months. We do have a reform agenda because we know our tax system is not well suited to the economic challenges of today. We have a very high corporate rate that dramatically impacts investment and it does lower wages, but it is a discussion we need to have with the Australian community because we need to generate support for change.

LIPSON

I want to look at some comments from Bill Shorten, the Opposition Leader, last night on the Q&A program speaking about the Unions Royal Commission and how he would react to any adverse findings against him. Have a look.

(Clip of the Hon Bill Shorten on Q&A, Monday 21 September)

Matt Thistlethwaite, Bill Shorten there suggesting he wouldn’t be affected by an adverse finding, is that right? Regardless of how the thing was set up, facts are facts aren’t they?

THISTLETHWAITE

It is not just about the way that the thing was set up, it is about the way that it is being run, and that the counsel assisting didn’t put a key number of questions to the likes of Kathy Jackson who has basically been found guilty by the Federal Court, so it is the way the system is being run, this Royal Commission is being run. And there are questions about the impartiality of the Commissioner in respect of him going to, or accepting an invite to a Liberal Party fundraiser, so it is purely a political exercise. Bill is right to point that out.

LIPSON

Scott Ryan, just in twenty seconds?

RYAN

Labor and Bill Shorten cannot run from the fact that this Royal Commission is uncovering criminality, stories today about documents being shredded, people are being charged. It is lifting the lid on an area of Australian politics that hasn’t been exposed and needs to be.

LIPSON

Scott Ryan, Matt Thistlethwaite, thanks very much for joining us. AM Agenda continues after this.

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