Subjects: CFA volunteers and United Firefighters Union dispute; Labor’s apprenticeships announcement; feminism; Childcare policies; Nick Xenophon; Leaders’ debates.
E&OE…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
To debate the biggest issues on the agenda as we are now in week five of the eight week election campaign, the Minister for Vocational Education and Skills Scott Ryan is with me in the studios. Hi Scott.
SCOTT RYAN:
Good afternoon Patricia.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Yes, we are definitely in the PM part of the day. And the shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Manufacturing, Nick Champion also joins us. Hi Nick.
NICK CHAMPION:
Good evening.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Senator Scott Ryan I will start with you, your state of Victoria has seen a big stoush involving volunteer firefighters, unions, and politicians. What changes to the Fair Work Act are you looking at to try and address these kinds of scenarios.
SCOTT RYAN:
As the Prime Minister outlined on the weekend and today, he is looking at – without drafting it on the spot – an amendment to the Act that would allow grounds for objections to a proposed agreement to be impact upon volunteers. Particularly in an organisation like the CFA, which has about 1,000 professionals but 60,000 volunteer firefighters who are of course so critical, not only to Victoria’s bushfire fighting capacity and day-to-day work in our urban fringe and regional areas, but particularly when we have those horrific disasters that we sadly have in Victoria all too often with bushfire risk.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So, why would he need to intervene through the Fair Work Act, it looks like it might be resolved at a state level. Isn’t that enough?
SCOTT RYAN:
We had thousands of volunteers – not people who normally protest – turn up in Melbourne on Sunday because they think the volunteer CFA – which is 80 years old and which has saved thousands of Victorians and is critical to our safety every summer – they think that their work and what they put in to protect their communities is at risk because Daniel Andrews is proposing to actually give the United Firefighters Union, effectively, a privileged position over the volunteers and give them the capacity to direct the volunteers. That puts our safety at risk, that puts the capacity of the CFA, not only to fight fires in Victoria but also when it goes across borders. This is a real issue of national interest because it is such a critical aspect of our national bushfire fighting capacity.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Nick Champion, has the Andrews Government in Victoria created an election trap for Bill Shorten here by arguing against volunteer firefighters? Scott makes an interesting point, there were thousands of volunteer firefighters on the streets of Victoria, they are red hot angry and there is actually a split in the Victorian Government over this.
NICK CHAMPION:
I think this all points to the fact that it is essentially a state dispute and it is essentially a state issue between, if you like, professional firefighters who are full-time and employed to do that job and the volunteer firefighters. I think some of the heat is generated more by misconceptions about this agreement than the reality of it, as I understand, and the Fair Work Commission has gone through this in quite some detail. Nonetheless, it is essentially a dispute for the Premier to resolve, and not for the Prime Minister to come in and, if you like, sort of inflame the dispute. What we need here is cool…
(Interrupted)
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But Bill Shorten has previously intervened in state matters, there are images and quotes of him, out at the moment actually doing the rounds on websites and media outlets, of him at a rally supporting firefighters in a dispute a couple of years ago. So he has intervened before in state disputes.
NICK CHAMPION:
I guess there is difference between supporting firefighters and involving yourself in, essentially, a state issue. The Premier is more than capable of resolving it, and by all accounts, it will be resolved in the next little while anyway. I don’t think what we need now is to effectively come part of the national debate and trigger national legislative change. This dispute will be over well before the Parliament reconvenes again.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I heard a little thing you said earlier, I would like to get some clarity here. Do you actually support this deal with the firefighters union? Do you think it is a good idea?
NICK CHAMPION:
I think we, I don’t know that much about it the technical nature of these things, but it seems to me, and we have seen it in my own state, that from time-to-time there are creative tensions between the professional firefighters, the full-time firefighters, on one hand and the volunteer groups on the other. I have got many volunteer groups on my electorate and they do a great job, they are very dedicated and they volunteer their own time, so that is a great contribution to the community. They are often very protective of what they do, and that is understandable. What we need is a good dialogue between all of these parties, and the best way to facilitate that dialogue is not to inflame the dispute, it is to try and resolve it.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Scott Ryan is the Prime Minister inflaming the dispute?
SCOTT RYAN:
This has been going on for a very, very long time. It exposes Bill Shorten’s hypocrisy, because he has met with Peter Marshall, and he won’t outline the details of that meeting…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
He is the head of the firefighters union in Victoria.
SCOTT RYAN:
…he is the head of the United Firefighters Union in Victoria. He spoke at a rally on the steps of state Parliament, and according to one report congratulated members, paramedics, on discovering a new industrial tactic. I don’t see why Nick thinks it is okay to stand up for professional firefighters but not to stand up for 60,0000 who put their lives on the line at no cost to the taxpayer to save their communities. What the Prime Minister did was understand that this is an issue of national interest. The capacity of the CFA to fight fires in Victoria, and the surge capacity that comes from that to send people interstate, and occasionally even overseas when necessary, is critical to our safety in these risky situations in summer when we have bushfires here. So, what the Prime Minister did, was after Daniel Andrews, and in this case Bill Shorten have failed to side with the volunteers, has said: we will allow the Fair Work Commission to consider impact on volunteers as a specific grounds for objection. And it is not being solved, because the CFA Board won’t sign the agreement, the head of the CFA won’t sign the agreement, and the Minister in Daniel Andrews own Government won’t sign the agreement.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
It is very divisive in the Victorian Parliament and the Victorian Government. You are listening to RN Drive, my guests are Liberal Senator for Victoria Scott Ryan he is the Minister for Vocational Education and Skills, and also Nick Champion he is Labor’s shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Manufacturing. The number here is 0418 226 576 you can always tweet us using the #RNDrive if you have a view on this or any other issue. Including this one, Nick Champion Labor announced an apprenticeships policy today, 1 in 10 jobs on Labor’s priority infrastructure projects would be filled by Australian apprentices. Will that compromise productivity on those projects?
NICK CHAMPION:
I wouldn’t think so, I think that would add to productivity because you would build up a skills base over time. What we have seen from this Government, $2.5 billion cut in skills since the Abbott government got elected, that has resulted in 604 lesser apprenticeships in my electorate, and if you translate that out across the whole country it is 120,000. So, what we have seen is a dramatic decline in apprenticeships and that ultimately damages you economy because you don’t have the skills base to do these big jobs in one form or another.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, but do you have any evidence of how the policy will boost skills or productivity? Is there modelling how have…
(Interrupted)
NICK CHAMPION:
I have got a practical example for you if you like? In my electorate there is a road called the Northern Expressway, it was commissioned in the first instance by the Howard government, and constructed by the Rudd and Gillard governments and I opened the road one week after the 2010 election. That job actually had contracts and, if you like, local procurements written into the contract and it worked fine. It is one of the best roads in the state.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Scott Ryan this is pretty close to your portfolio space, does it make your internships program look like a worse deal for young people and a more expensive one for taxpayers by comparison?
SCOTT RYAN:
What the internship program is directed at is helping young people get work ready. One of the biggest complaints we have from employers, small and large and everyone involved in this space in apprenticeships, is actually they cannot find suitable people who are work ready to undertake the work. I have got to correct a couple of things Nick said there, Patricia. He is saying $2.5 billion, but the thing is $1.2 billion was cut by Labor including a whole range of payments to employers – commencement payments, recommencement payments, completion payments, payments for adult apprentices, part-time apprentices, amongst a whole range of others – the Productivity Commission said that had had an impact. The TAFE Directors Australia said that had had an impact. And that led to the single biggest drop in commencements of apprenticeships on record.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, but there has been another reduction under your Government.
SCOTT RYAN:
In Labor’s statement today they actually made a significant error. They claimed that trade commencements plummeted almost 20 per cent between September 2014 and 2015 alone, and that is simply not true. The reality is that the report Labor referenced in their own statement actually states that trade commencements increased in the 12 months to September 2015. This is another confected attempt at diversion from Labor who cut $1.2 billion and nine separate payments to employers to support apprentices.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Nick Champion, quickly, will the 2600 apprentices you say will be hired under this new policy, will their employers still get the $4,000 incentive?
NICK CHAMPION:
Yes, yes that all stays the same.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I want to move on to childcare, but before we even get there, Scott Ryan are you a feminist?
SCOTT RYAN:
I’m happy to be described as such. I’ll let others use labels, for me but I’m very happy with the term.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So you, you know, you’re a feminist?
SCOTT RYAN:
I’ve used the word before myself –
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Oh have you?
SCOTT RYAN:
Yes I have.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Have you?!
SCOTT RYAN:
Not one I often commonly use, I’m not one for labels, I’ll let others judge, but I have used the word to describe myself.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And why do you use the word, or occasionally?
SCOTT RYAN:
I think someone asked me in a similar situation to this Patricia. I think those of us, particularly our generation who have grown up in a world where many of our mums work – gender blindness, for lack of a better way of putting it, is something we’ve grown up with. That’s not always perfect, but I think it’s a very different starting point to people from previous generations and I’ve always been a strong supporter of policies that promote and support equality.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, Nick Champion, you’re a feminist too?
NICK CHAMPION:
Well if I’m not now I will be shortly after the election because I have a daughter due to be born 27 days after the election. So I suspect that if it hasn’t already, will change my world view in more ways than one but particularly we want to see a world that’s equal and where girls have the same opportunities as little boys.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay, well I think we all agree on that. So let’s get to how you actually achieve that. On the issue – they’ve got the feminism question even on the agenda, childcare, Nick Champion, why would Labor not means-test its childcare payment increases? Do you really think it’s fair that families on a million dollars can get $10,000 a child, not – the full amount, $10,000 a child, families on a million dollars.
NICK CHAMPION:
Well Patricia we’ve been having this debate for, I think about 20 years ago, 20 years or so. This is a universal payment, always has been and it’s universal because we acknowledge that women, we want women to participate in the workforce at all levels of you know, our economy, at the very high ends and the very low ends and that’s why it’s a universal payment.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But is it a contradiction, with your other philosophy which is you know, that the rich should not be given hand-outs. I mean, your superannuation policy is premised on the idea that rich people should not get the same kind of largesse. Why should this happen in the childcare system?
NICK CHAMPION:
Well I think if you look – there are some payments which are universal, some programs which are universal, Medicare is one of them, childcare in this instance is one of them. And then there are other things where we tax people progressively or we you know, cut off benefits progressively. That’s a sensible thing to do, but it’s also sensible to have some programs which are universal because of their importance and childcare is one of them because it’s about participation in the economy.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Scott Ryan your colleagues keep telling us that Labor’s childcare plan is not funded. That’s the main argument you’re using. Is that because you can’t actually win on the policy itself? Because Labor’s policy is a win-win for pretty much everyone, whereas yours has a lot of losers.
SCOTT RYAN:
No, our policy consciously redirects support to families on lower and middle incomes. The point you raised there that elections are a choice about where we direct limited resources, and in the childcare space, we believe that families on lower and middle incomes need a higher level of support because it is more expensive to go to work. It represents a higher proportion of their income. So in our case, a family on $65,000 a year will get 85 per cent of the set fee rebated. We’re doing what people have often asked for in the childcare space, having done the hard work to rationalise the two different payments to make it less complex…
(Interrupted)
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Sure, but if I can interrupt, you are linking it to cuts from the family tax benefit system to pay for it. Given that’s been so difficult to get through the upper house, of course you’re going to have a new Senate, I understand you’ll give it a go and that’s your policy. If you fail to get that through, can you look for other savings to try and get this through? Rather than say we can’t get the cuts through so we’re just going to abandon it, because that’s what you did last term and we saw no reform.
SCOTT RYAN:
Well I think to be fair we’re going to make a serious attempt to get through the savings. You have to actually be able to save money to spend it, and this is another one of the great problems with Labor’s policy – they haven’t indicated how they’re going to pay for it. And a promise without a means to pay for it is not a meaningful promise. We’ve been honest about saying we want to redirect resources form the family tax benefits system to childcare to support families going back to work and to support people at lower and middle incomes. Labor has just got this proposal where they don’t want to means-test anything, they want give everything to everyone, they haven’t promised or outlined how they’re going to pay for it, and without that it’s a meaningless promise.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Scott Ryan, are the Liberals so worried about Nick Xenophon, especially in Jamie Briggs’ seat of Mayo that you’ve had John Howard there today comparing Senator Xenophon to Pauline Hanson – do you really think that’s a fair comparison?
SCOTT RYAN:
I think the sort of economically xenophobic policies that come out sometimes of Nick Xenophon are a real danger to our country…
(Interrupted)
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Sure, but do you really think he’s like Pauline Hanson?
SCOTT RYAN:
I think in an economic sense. One of the great risks we have is that we can’t have our country turn away from the world. Under the Coalition we’ve had transformative free trade agreements that are going to provide enormous opportunities particularly for areas like the Adelaide Hills and areas represented by Jamie Briggs, a good friend of mine. And so John Howard, as many people know Jamie has had a long-standing relationship with John going back over a decade – I think Mr Howard was going back to support one of his former staff.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Yeah and we got to see him walk in the morning again, a flashback to the 2000’s for me, back to following him around…
(Interrupted)
SCOTT RYAN:
I think people look back on the Howard era quite fondly.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Well we’ve had a few difficult years including under your government and of course ah, the other one, Nick Champion’s side too. Nick Champion you’ve lashed out at Nick Xenophon yourself recently, but has Labor discussed any kind of preference deal with him?
NICK CHAMPION:
Well preferences are done by party offices and party officials and not generally done by politicians or candidates – that’s a good thing I think and so I haven’t, I’m not aware of any preference discussions that might be going on.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Alright, I’ll leave it there then. Just on this debate, there has been a bit of controversy about the debate today. Malcolm Turnbull today proposed a leaders’ debate via Facebook. Bill Shorten has agreed. Scott Ryan, isn’t this a massive, massively unusual thing for him to do? I understand he announced this, but Bill Shorten didn’t even really know about it. What was that all about?
SCOTT RYAN:
Well I can’t attest to that, I’m not privy to any discussions. I think we’ve had a People’s Forum, we’ve and a formal debate. Anyone will tell you in politics that hundreds of thousands of Australians – that’s how they get their news, that’s how they engage in newly constructed communities that aren’t defined by geography, and so I think particularly for younger Australians this is going to be a way to engage with people that quite frankly won’t tune in to a more traditional-style political debate. I think it reflects the changes of politics –
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So it’s not because he hasn’t been necessarily winning the debates?
SCOTT RYAN:
Well I think we’ve done one of the Peoples’ Forums, we’ve done a formal debate, we should a do a range of things to reflect the range of ways in which people communicate these days. I think it actually reflects the fact that in Malcolm Turnbull we have a Prime Minister who’s particularly engaged in the new economy and with his commercial background, understands how important this is to people these days.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Nick Champion, Malcolm Turnbull has more than twice as many likes on Facebook as Bill Shorten does, is this going to suit Mr Shorten?
NICK CHAMPION:
Well let’s just hope you know, we’re not all relying on the National Broadband Network, you know, to watch it because of course Malcolm Turnbull promised it would be finished by 2016 and I can tell you I was out there door-knocking in Craigmore, in the suburb or Craigmore in the northern suburbs of Adelaide and every single household you knock on complains about not being able to get adequate internet. So –
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So if it’s buffering it will be a problem for the Government?
NICK CHAMPION:
Well indeed, indeed. And for the former Communications Minister who promised big and only delivered to 20 per cent of Australians.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
My final question, because we are going to wrap up politics, people do want to talk about other things, you know with respect to both of you. A final question, I’m asking guests this throughout the campaign, Nick Champion I’ll start with you. What are you doing to make it through to July the second? Because eight weeks is a very long time to campaign, arguably we’ve been actually campaigning for longer, really, given we’ve all been waiting for this date. So what do you do to kind of get through.
NICK CHAMPION:
Well I’ve been painting a nursery and on the occasions I need a bit of exercise I go and play a bit of Aussie rules with my blue heeler.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
That’s – your blue heeler and you’re painting a nursery –
NICK CHAMPION:
It’s very ordinary.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I reckon your likes are going to go up on Facebook, now. Scott Ryan what’s your survival trick?
SCOTT RYAN:
Well firstly congratulations Nick, I didn’t know that you’re expecting.
NICK CHAMPION:
Thanks mate.
SCOTT RYAN:
I’ve got a son on the way in August, so –
NICK CHAMPION:
Oh bravo.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
RN Drive, it’s a baby machine.
SCOTT RYAN:
What I’m doing is, I’ll be honest I’m trying to carve out those few hours on the weekend to spend with my son and he’s got a little scooter we go around the neighbourhood on, we go to the park and going for a walk to clear the mind, that’s what I’m doing.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
I know, I like walking too. Thank you to both of you –
SCOTT RYAN:
Thanks Patricia.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You’ve both been ridiculously civil with each other, people wouldn’t know that it’s such a tight election battle. Scott Ryan is the Minister for Vocational Education and Skills, and Nick Champion is the Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Manufacturing.
(ENDS)