Subjects: COAG, tax reform, the Hon Kevin Andrews MP, same-sex marriage, VET, VET FEE-HELP.
E&OE…
PATRICIA KARVELAS
What might have been a period of down time in Federal politics has come alive, with reverberations from the Prime Minister’s tax defeated at COAG and a potential leadership challenge from…wait for it…Kevin Andrews. To talk it all through from our Perth studios is the Minister for Vocational Education and Skills Senator Scott Ryan. Welcome back to RN Drive.
MINISTER RYAN
Good evening Patricia, thanks for having me.
KARVELAS
You’re in Perth for portfolio business, and I’ll get to that but first to your home state of Victoria and Kevin Andrews, he says he was just answering a journalist’s hypothetical question when he spoke of a future challenge to Malcolm Turnbull, but here is what Bill Shorten says:
(Audio clip of Mr Shorten)
When you are in a de-facto election campaign, which we really are, do prominent Government MPs need to be more careful about what they are actually saying?
RYAN
You mentioned in your introduction Patricia that this was a quiet day in politics and I think the attention that these comments that Kevin has subsequently corrected while he is on the Pollie Pedal are a reflection of that. He came out and corrected them so I assume that that means that he would have expressed himself differently.
KARVELAS
But he didn’t really correct them, he didn’t correct them. I watched that clip over and over again and what he says is…
RYAN
I haven’t seen the clip.
KARVELAS
…okay. No challenge, before the election. That is what he says.
RYAN
Look, I am a Senator and I suppose I can say this Patricia, but Senators always suspect that Members of the House of Representatives, virtually all of them have a secret wish, or a secret view that they could be PM. I don’t mean to be too flippant, but this is an interview he gave to a local newspaper. He came out and corrected it today, I view that as a correction and really Bill’s history on it, given his particular history in this regard, it’s just an attempt to divert attention from the real issues the Government is talking about.
KARVELAS
But, given the fact that Kevin Andrews has really been destabilising Malcolm Turnbull with on the record comments, disagreeing with the Defence White Paper, giving interviews even before the Defence Minister provides interviews, Marise Payne who is now the Defence Minister, if you frame it within all of that it is kind of pretty weird behaviour isn’t it?
RYAN
Patricia, the biggest criticism I hear of politicians is that they do not speak frankly enough, they do not speak about what they believe that they toe the party line, I honestly view the fact that my colleagues who are not in the Ministry are able to speak freely and disagree while at the same time being members of the Liberal Party and supporting the Government. I view that as a strength of the Government, we can’t go on in politics and expect people to be robots, so if my colleagues disagree with the policy that I undertake, my job is to convince them the way it is to convince the Australian people. So, a difference of opinion publically expressed, isn’t that something we want from our politicians?
KARVELAS
Not if they are effectively saying that they do not necessarily support the Prime Minister in the long term, that is different to just having different opinions.
RYAN
There will be Malcolm Turnbull corflutes and banner wraps on Kevin Andrew’s polling booths. He is a member of the Liberal Party, an endorsed member of the team, that is running for re-election to ensure that Malcolm Turnbull is re-elected as Prime Minister.
KARVELAS
Let me ask it another way then, you cannot think that this was a good day for you?
RYAN
I really don’t think that if I walked down the street here in Perth, or when I arrive home in Melbourne later tonight that people are going to be talking about an interview that Kevin Andrews gave to the Manningham Leader.
KARVELAS
Alright, Kevin Andrews has also said that he will not vote to support changing the Marriage Act, even if the results of a plebiscite find overwhelmingly in favour of allowing same-sex marriage unions. He is telling you that the plebiscite is a waste of arguable hundreds of millions of dollars ins’t he by saying that? What is the point of the plebiscite, if he doesn’t want to vote to reflect its outcomes?
RYAN
Well, I think the former prime minister made a point to not reflect the result of a plebiscite is just not really tenable. The plebiscite, which will cost about $140 million, the multi hundred million dollars cost put out there by an accounting firm is nothing short of a fabrication.
KARVELAS
I have heard $160 where did you get $140 million from?
RYAN
Look you can actually talk, there is a marginal difference there, but there was a claim that it would cost hundreds of millions and that is simply not true. The cost to the Budget is somewhere between $140 to $160 million, would be in that order.
KARVELAS
Okay, and are we going to see it budgeted before? In the budget in May?
RYAN
That is an interesting question and to be honest outside of both of my portfolio responsibilities so I cannot answer that particular question….
KARVELAS
It would make sense though wouldn’t it?
RYAN
…but what will happen in Parliament is, that if we win the election and there is a plebiscite and that result is carried, I can guarantee that there will be more than enough – in fact there would only be a handful of people in my view that wouldn’t reflect the result of the public plebiscite in a vote in Parliament.
KARVELAS
The pundits are picking over the bones of last week’s COAG, Scott Morrison says that states and territories were never going to agree to the Prime Minister’s income tax proposal. Here is the Treasurer on the ABC’s AM program:
(Audio of the Treasurer on AM with Michael Brissenden)
So, was the whole thing a stunt? Are we meant to think it was a deliberate ploy to basically ward off the state’s future requests for more revenue?
RYAN
No, it was a genuine ploy that has been worked out for a couple of years, but particularly for the COAG meeting last December where there was an agreement to work on taxation models to solve the budget pressure that both the states and in fairness the Commonwealth has because of our budget deficit. This has been an idea that has been around for decades, Malcolm Fraser tried it, Bob Hawke tried it, Malcolm Turnbull got very close but the states decided that they did not want to have independent revenue sources and this is a reflection of the fact that Labor broke our Federal model. It used to be premiers coming to Canberra arguing about a few per cent here and there, a bit more money for roads and important services like schools and hospitals, but Labor broke that by promising tens of billions of dollars, multiplied out over ten years for which there was no revenue source and indeed for some of those revenue sources they then voted against them in Parliament – like when they were trying to redirect education money. Labor broke the Federal model, the states were offered an opportunity to partly fix it last Friday, they decided not to. So, not the explicit result of that is the Commonwealth cannot hand over money that it does not have.
KARVELAS
On RN Drive my guest is Senator Scott Ryan, he is the Minister for Vocational Education and Skills. Our number here at RN Drive 0418 226 576 – I would love it if you could text us your views on all of these issues, what do you make of that tax proposal that now looks dead by certainly the Prime Minister has said that people must, the states must live within their means, what do you make of that? I would love to get your texts on that 0418 226 576.
Living within our means, so that is the thing now? Like the slogan for the election? How many times do I have to hear that now?
RYAN
It is a principle, it is a basic principle and quite frankly it is a basic Coalition and a basic Liberal Party principle. We should not be making promises that are based on borrowed money that has to be paid back by future generations. Labor, not only left the Budget in a disastrous situation, they made irresponsible unfunded promises that they had no chance of delivering and they made because they thought they were going to lose an election to create a political slogan and campaign when they are in Opposition. The money that they promised to handover over ten years was never there, and a number of issues in my portfolio and others were all left unfunded, national partnership agreements across education, they didn’t fund the so-called Gonski funding for Queensland, Western Australia, and the Northern Territory – that was taken out of the Budget before the 2013 election. So, these promises from Labor are just myths. There is a real choice now which is: yes we are going to see hospitals and schools funding continue to grow, but it is going to grow more slowly because that is what the country can afford.
KARVELAS
You are still going to have to find a solution at some point though. If this tax proposal is dead, it doesn’t mean that you don’t need to find another solution. Are people really going to cop the kind of cuts that might be…
RYAN
…they are not cuts Patricia…
KARVELAS
…people see them as cuts, the last two years of Gonski looks like a cut to people…you admitted it on the record that you need to deal with it.
RYAN
Yeah, and we have to win the argument that reducing the rate of growth in spending in key services like hospitals and schools in order to stop borrowing money and to not increase taxes but to reduce the rate of growth of spending is not a cut.
KARVELAS
You’re in Perth at the start of a national tour meeting people in the vocational education industry as you work on a discussion paper aimed at saving the sector, effectively. You have promised reforms in 2017, but in the meantime, the sector is basically in crisis isn’t it? Students are losing out, money is being burnt, 2017 is too far away isn’t it given the kind of crisis we are looking at?
RYAN
Well, this is my 46th day in the job, and it has been clear to me that…
KARVELAS
You’re counting?
RYAN
Well, look every day in my job has been looking at this VET FEE-HELP crisis, and it is a serious issue because the way the system was set up in 2012 was fundamentally flawed. They took the successful university HECs model but without some of the checks and balances that exist in the tertiary higher education sector and put it in the vocational education space without those checks and balances. And my two predecessors in this role have brought in more than a dozen probity and control measures which have been very important in stopping giving away the iPads and free laptops, stopping the cold-calling that leads to people gathering debts of tens of thousands of dollars by signing a single piece of paper one afternoon walking through a shopping centre. We have delayed making payments to certain organisations until we actually see the reconciliation that these students are real. But at the core of the problem we have is that the legislation we inherited actually doesn’t give the Commonwealth Government many controls to stop funding these institutions. So, what I have undertaken and what my predecessor undertook was to redesign the system for 2017, the system has been frozen for 2016 and that has some issues that we are also managing through, I am focussing a lot of time on taking care of the students where providers fall over and that has happened already in the last couple of weeks. We have accommodated all of them thus far. And we are undertaking a couple of very serious probity measures that I will have more to say on in a few weeks which will ensure that there is sent a very strong signal…
(Interrupted)
KARVELAS
Can you give me a hint, you’ve just gone there so I can’t help but ask what sort of probity measures might you…
(Interrupted)
RYAN
I am happy to come back and explain but we are working on them, and this is a sector that needs certainty. So, the discussion paper following the consultations I am having is actually about saying ‘what direction do we need to reform the VET FEE-HELP system in’. It is only 300,000 students out of 4 million students undertaking vocational education, but it actually having a negative impact on the reputation of the whole sector, I understand.
KARVELAS
Can you give us a figure? How much has been wasted?
RYAN
It is hard to put a finger on it, the Department of Education has referenced to figures a couple of years old saying that it could be up to a third. If my memory serves me correct that was late last year, in money that had not been spent as appropriately – I think is the best way to describe it – because a lot of students signed up and dropped out, some completion rates are 6 or 7 per cent, that means the money wasn’t illegally sort, it just means that students were not fully engaged in their education. And we have got to fix that. So, this discussion paper is going to point to the direction of reform and we will manage the freeze we have in place this year to make sure that we can redesign the system from the ground up for next year. At its core is this problem from 2012 that gives the Commonwealth less regulatory control than it does in the university sector.
KARVELAS
Senator Scott Ryan, come back again and tell us about these probity measures when you announce them, or before, I always like it happening before on this program. Thanks for joining us.
RYAN
Thank you Patricia.
(ENDS)