Topics: Immigration, president-elect Donald Trump, free trade
E&OE …
JON FAINE:
Scott Ryan, good morning to you.
SENATOR SCOTT RYAN:
Good morning Jon. Nice to be here.
FAINE:
So back on September 21, you told me there was no basis whatsoever for something that now, on November 14, has been confirmed.
SENATOR RYAN:
Well Jon, I think, again, you were fair in your introduction, the basis of our little tete-a-tete there – I didn’t recall the date, but I do recall it …
FAINE:
I recall the date, it was my birthday.
SENATOR RYAN:
It was too. I did wish you a happy birthday too.
But in your introduction to the program, which sparked our conversation later on, you did, essentially, infer, if not state, that the Government didn’t want to take Muslims from Nauru and did want to take Christians or Catholics from elsewhere in the world, in this case, central America. That was the source of me saying that I think you had crossed the line. I stand by it. If you want to discuss the announcement yesterday I’m more than happy to.
FAINE:
So what are we doing? We are swapping Muslims from Nauru and Manus Island for Christian-Catholic refugees in central America.
SENATOR RYAN:
There is no such swap Jon. And I note that Phil Glendenning on the radio this morning – I think it was on Radio National, someone who is occasionally critical of Government policy – he did make the observation that, I think, there is a 40-year history of Australia resettling refugees and taking people from Central America.
The announcement yesterday, the arrangement with the United States, is a new arrangement. It was a discussion started with the Prime Minister and Minister for a substantial period of time, and they outlined the reason for that yesterday. In essence, the United States will, within its existing quota of refugees, take references from the UNHCR – the refugee body of the United Nations – and within their own processes will allow some of those, to be determined by the United States processes, to be resettled in the United States.
FAINE:
In exchange for which?
SENATOR RYAN:
There is no such exchange. This arrangement is a new arrangement.
Let’s go back and look at what Labor tried to do with their openly described people swap. This arrangement only involves those that are found to be worthy of protection, only involves refugees. This arrangement, there is no question, I understand, around its legality The Labor Party tried to use their Malaysia people swap as a tool, a failed tool, to stop the people smuggling trade.
FAINE:
Let’s go through, there are so many aspects of this that are curious. First of all why does it disrupt the model of the people smugglers if the product that you’re trying to stop them selling involves eventually getting to the United States?
SENATOR RYAN:
What we are dealing with is the legacy of the catastrophe by Labor. We’ve made it clear …
FAINE:
Just answer the question rather than embark on politicking about it.
SENATOR RYAN:
No, but we’ve stopped the boats. We’ve invested in extra resources.
FAINE:
My question is, how does it disrupt the business model that you claim is that of the people smugglers, if the eventual destination of their customers ends up being the United States?
SENATOR RYAN:
This is a once-off arrangement.
FAINE:
They’ll say there’ll be another one, don’t worry, you might have to be warehoused for a while and then Australia will send you to America, how good is that?
SENATOR RYAN:
Let’s look at our track record. As has been pointed out by refugee advocates when they campaigned for this, they said that John Howard eventually brought some people quietly from Nauru to Australia.
We have said no one who seeks to come to Australia unlawfully will ever settle in Australia. This reflects that commitment so you can take us at our word and I think, to be fair, no one questions the Coalition’s commitment to ensuring that particular promise is absolutely kept.
FAINE:
I don’t take anyone at their word, that’s my job.
SENATOR RYAN:
Fair point.
FAINE:
What is our side? What are we doing in exchange as our part of this bargain?
SENATOR RYAN:
Well Jon, as I’ve said, this arrangement with the United States is within their refugee assistance program, the largest in the world I understand.
FAINE:
I understand, but what are we doing on our side.
SENATOR RYAN:
And I’m telling you, this arrangement is one with the United States via the UNHCR. There is no swap with the US.
FAINE:
No trade off? No quid pro quo? No secret deal that we will let the dust settle and then, six months from now, Australia will announce ‘oh, we are going to take an extra thousand people from Central America’. I’ll wager you one of your expensive bottles of red wine that I don’t drink but you do, that that is what is going to happen six months from now. You will quietly announce that, when the dust has settled, we are increasing our refugee intake from Central America by a thousand.
SENATOR RYAN:
I’ll refer you to the comments of the Prime Minister and Minister last night. This arrangement is a once-off, within the United States refugee assistance program, and they have a long history of working with the UNHCR, as do we, and there is a long history of multilateral work with the UNHCR to deal with humanitarian issues.
FAINE:
Or is it to do with increased defence location for the United States in the Northern Territory as a response to the build up in the post-Philippines fall out? Is it to do with swapping defence obligations with some other quid pro quo with the United States?
SENATOR RYAN:
Jon, this is well outside my portfolio but I make this observation …
FAINE:
You know what’s going on, you’re the Special Minister of State.
SENATOR RYAN:
I’ll make this observation. Australia has deep and broad ties and relations with the United States at government, community and business level. This arrangement is an arrangement as I have described. Deals with refugees, not just the people swap that Labor put in place with Malaysia, it deals with people who have been found to be deserving of protection and it is once-off and it is within the United States existing refugee program.
FAINE:
How can the Turnbull Government break international law so brazenly?
SENATOR RYAN:
I’m not sure what you’re referring to Jon.
FAINE:
We have international treaty obligations. We accept these people are refugees under international law and we’re going to send them somewhere else rather than meet our obligations and comply with international treaties.
SENATOR RYAN:
We’ve made it clear …
FAINE:
We just opt out and say ‘yeah that’s the law but we’re not going to comply with it’.
SENATOR RYAN:
I know many people who put the view that what Australia’s processes are, are not a breach of any international law. Quite frankly, I think the fact that this has been tested at election after election, it is clear that our policy has public support and I don’t accept the way you characterise it as a breach.
FAINE:
There is public support for hanging too. It doesn’t mean you, or anyone else wants to bring it back.
SENATOR RYAN:
I don’t, but on this case, to be fair, I don’t think it is as you characterise it. While some people make that accusation, there are others who make it very clear it is not a breach of our international obligations.
FAINE:
How do you know the Trump Administration won’t scupper this deal?
SENATOR RYAN:
We deal with the American administration as it is, as the Prime Minister pointed out …
FAINE:
Security checks will take more than a few months. It’s going to be president Trump …
SENATOR RYAN:
… And at 12.30pm on January 20, the United States has a new administration and a new president and we will deal with them in good faith, as we deal with the current one.
FAINE:
So it is all subject to …
SENATOR RYAN:
No, no. We’ve made an arrangement, as someone does with the Government of Australia, and I think, it is fair to say, this has been in its development for quite a long period. The Prime Minister spoke to President Obama about it first in January, prior to that we invested in extra resources for border protection.
FAINE:
But president-elect Trump can undo this deal with the stroke of a pen, can’t he?
SENATOR RYAN:
I made it very clear during the election – and I was often asked questions about it – I don’t make observations on the internal democratic processes of other nations, particularly allies.
FAINE:
No, but the reality is, as a statement of fact, not about a bit of vaudeville analysis, but as a statement of fact, president-elect Trump, upon coming into office, can undo this with a stroke of a pen.
SENATOR RYAN:
Well, I’m not sure of the internal legal arrangements of the United States. There is an arrangement with the administration of the US by President Obama, I’ll leave you to make observations about what may or may not happen in the future. I can’t speak to them, I’m not an authority on that.
FAINE:
Likewise, the proposed and announced lifetime ban on people ever visiting Australia if they’re part of this deal, it’s not dependent on that either clearly because that’s not yet made it through the Parliament. It’s not made it through the Senate.
SENATOR RYAN:
I’ll leave specific observations on that to the Minister and to the Prime Minister, but I will say this, it is very important that we ensure that the door is never opened again. This is not a theoretical argument Jon. We used to have a theoretical argument about border protection, and then Labor opened the floodgates. They stopped us reintroducing temporary protection visas, we got that through the Senate with the crossbenchers …
FAINE:
Sorry, the question is a simple one. It’s not dependent on the lifetime ban being made into law because you haven’t necessarily got the numbers to get that through the Senate.
SENATOR RYAN:
If Bill Shorten wants to actually support both cleaning up Labor’s mess of Manus and Nauru, and ensure that it doesn’t happen again, then the Labor Party will support the passage of that legislation.
FAINE:
Is the deal with the United States dependent on the lifetime ban or not?
SENATOR RYAN:
As I said, I will let the Minister for Immigration answer specific …
FAINE:
It’s not because [inaudible]. You haven’t got the numbers to get that through the Parliament.
SENATOR RYAN:
I’ll let the Minister for Immigration make specific observations on the detail because I don’t want to speak …
FAINE:
So they’re nothing to do with each other, in fact?
SENATOR RYAN:
I think, to be fair Jon, one supports the other quite strongly. We don’t want to have to clean up this mess again. This is a once-off arrangement. I’ve made that clear.
FAINE:
Sure, but the deal with America has been negotiated quite separately from the Government’s proposed lifetime ban on visiting Australia. Is that correct?
SENATOR RYAN:
You can ask the Minister for Immigration that …
FAINE:
No, I’ve got the Special Minister of State, I’ve got you here. I don’t have Peter Dutton, the last time he spoke to me is probably the last time he will ever speak to me, the way it went, so I don’t expect to get, I probably won’t get a chance to ask Minister Dutton, but I can ask you.
SENATOR RYAN:
I won’t speak to the specific negotiations with the United States. I wasn’t part of them. But the legislation we have in the Senate to close the door forever is an important way of ensuring what you said earlier doesn’t happen again and that we don’t have the people smuggling trade recommencing. You raised that earlier, that is an important signal to send to the region.
FAINE:
All right, we will see what happens in due course.
Just while I have you, the Trans-Pacific Partnership sounds as if it is completely over, all over red rover, and as Steve Ciobo was saying on Insiders yesterday, we will have to look at what else we can do, what other arrangements we can put in place. Is that a significant blow to the Australian economy in your view?
SENATOR RYAN:
Look, whenever you lower trade barriers, it is good for the economy, it is particularly good for the Australian economy. I didn’t see Steve’s interview yesterday, but when both presidential candidates campaigned against, effectively, the TPP, I wouldn’t be optimistic about it.
FAINE:
And then the Labor Party now say they are going to make more of a meal out of 457 visas and their opposition to them based on the back of a bit of analysis.
SENATOR RYAN:
And I look forward, Jon, to a bit of the people accusing the Labor Party of dog whistling, given the numbers of 457s that occurred when Labor was in office were at extraordinary levels, and higher than they are now.
FAINE:
As always, thank you indeed for your time this morning and we’ll see what the audience make of it.
(ENDS)