Topics: Iron ore enquiry; asylum seekers; Johnny Depp’s dogs.
E&OE…
KIERAN GILBERT
This is AM Agenda. With me now Matt Thistlethwaite, Labor frontbencher, and also Liberal minister and frontbencher Scott Ryan, thanks so much for your time. First to you Senator Ryan the issue of these asylum seekers stranded at sea, it’s a shocking situation. The Greens’ spokesperson Senator Hanson-Young wants your government, the Abbott Government, to take a lead here in the search and rescue effort. Is that something you think the Government should consider?
SCOTT RYAN
I’m sure that the Government will respond to any requests from our neighbours if our neighbours do seek either guidance or assistance. I think the important point to note here is that just as we’ve seen in our region, and just as we’ve particularly seen in Europe, the most important way to protect people’s safety is to stop the people smuggling trade. I mean, in Europe you effectively had a government running a rescue service, which became a tax service, which saw one hundred and seventy thousand people cross unlawfully last year. And you’re now reading reports of a million people waiting on the shores of Northern Africa having paid for passage with people smugglers. Now, in Australia we’ve managed to stop this awful trade, we’ve managed to stop deaths at sea, and what we’re seeing north of us now is the people smugglers having tried to adopt another business model. It simply has to be stopped. We can’t tolerate it.
GILBERT
But in terms of the issue of turning back the boats, the US Secretary of State John Kerry, a spokesperson has been quoted as saying that they’ve urged nations in that region, ‘we’ve urged governments in the region to refrain from pushbacks of new boat arrivals’. That was the quote. I guess the question is: it’s a very different situation that Australia’s got, where we’ve got people coming through transit countries, as is the situation with the Rohingya population of Myanmar, they’re going to the first port of call and they’re still being turned back.
RYAN
Our policy was always turning back the boats when it is safe to do so, and I think the last eighteen months has showed that that policy can be both effective at stopping the people smuggling trade and safe in terms of safely doing so.
GILBERT
But has it just kicked the problem up the road a bit?
RYAN
I think that this is a problem that has a number of drivers. I mean, we know for a fact that when Labor and the Greens put their policies in place in Australia it did mean that the people smugglers targeted Australia. Now, we have a duty to our own citizens, there has probably been no issue that has been so substantially debated in Australia over the last decade. And the Australian population, the Australian community, has settled on a policy that says: we resettle people from overseas, but we do not allow unlawful arrivals.
GILBERT
You’ve got a crisis in the Andaman Sea, eight thousand people floating. People from Iraq, from Syria, these are people from our region.
RYAN
And the Australian Government can provide advice to those in our region. But I think that we’ve got to understand that Australia cannot solve the world’s problems. We do an incredible job with those that we resettle in our community, it is the right thing to do and it is something that I am very proud of, our record in doing so, and we will continue to do so.
GILBERT
Matt Thistlethwaite, your thoughts on this? Should, as Senator Hanson-Young suggests, Australia send vessels take a lead role in the search and rescue effort for these asylum seekers?
THISTLETHWAITE
It’s an alarming situation Kieran, and the depths of vulnerable people in these circumstances are quite shocking. I think that if other nations request that Australia become involved in search and rescue operations, that we should certainly give consideration to that. And Australia’s certainly been a nation that’s done its bit in terms of international maritime rescue and search and recovery, but I think the other point with this is that it highlights the fact that this is a regional problem. And Labor’s always said that we need a regional solution to the people smuggling trade, to issues associated with non-refoulement, with ensuring that we can settle as many refugees as safely as possible, and it’s disappointing that the Abbott Government’s pulled out of many of those international for a which work with our partners, particularly in the Asia Pacific, with dealing with these issues.
GILBERT
So do you believe that the Government has simply pushed this problem north? Is that your view when it comes to turnbacks?
THISTLETHWAITE
Well I’d caution the Minister for Immigration telling other nations that they should be pushing boats back, particularly as you point out that many of these people aren’t coming through transit countries, they’re leaving source countries and the issue then becomes whether or not they’re being refouled in breach of the convention. And I don’t think that that is something that Australia should be encouraging, we’re signatories to the convention. So far the approach that Australia has taken is that we respect that non-refoulement provision, and we assess people before they’re found to be economic refugees, and we make moves to send them back. So I think we’d better be cautious sending a message to other nations to refoule people.
GILBERT
Is that fair enough, Senator Ryan? Given that the Minister’s quoted in The Australian this morning as saying that these sovereign countries on our doorstep have every right to turnback boats, when really under conventions they don’t because they are being sent back, potentially, to the country of their persecution.
RYAN
Well, we are bound by the convention as a signatory. I’m not sure exactly which countries in our region have ratified…
(inaudible)
Look at the full context, there are two sentences that the Minister stated. I think he was reinforcing a quite legitimate point, that it is entirely the responsibility of every government to ensure the safety of their borders. We do not want the disaster that’s happening in the Mediterranean to start to be replicated in the Asian region.
GILBERT
It looks like it’s a bit late for that with eight thousand people floating.
RYAN
It is a humanitarian tragedy. But, what we’ve seen in the Mediterranean now are hundreds of thousands of people doing this, and potentially a million people waiting for people smugglers. We cannot allow this evil trade to start because it will lead to more deaths at sea and it will destabilise immigration systems in our region.
GILBERT
As the Secretary of State John Kerry has urged Thailand to provide temporary shelter to the thousands concerned, would you do the same?
RYAN
Well I haven’t seen the full context of the US Secretary of State’s remarks, and I’m not going to be providing public advice to nations and neighbours in our region outside my particular portfolio area.
GILBERT
Are you worried that Indonesia and these countries to our north have taken our lead and have said ok, Australia’s turning back boats, obviously as you say in a different context and with appropriate safeguards as the Government’s argued, but that has not been replicated in their particular turnbacks?
RYAN
They may have taken our lead because they understand that we cannot replicate the problems of the Mediterranean, we cannot replicate the problems of Europe, this problem has to be nipped in the bud. Now, Australia under Tony Abbott has stopped the people smuggling trade, and I think in our region people are…
(inaudible)
But that is our direct accountability and responsibility. I think our nation’s neighbours have also seen the disaster of the Mediterranean and realised that if this people smuggling trade takes hold, this will simply be the first of a number of humanitarian disasters.
GILBERT
Matt Thistlethwaite, as Senator Ryan points out this is only the tip of the iceberg, you’re talking about a population of Rohingya alone in Myanmar I think, from memory, of one and a half million. So potentially a very, very large source of clients to the people smuggling trade to be reignited.
THISTLETHWAITE
That’s a fact, Kieran. We’re seeing an increase in the number of people in our region, and generally throughout the world, who are seeking asylum, and that’s something that we can’t ignore. I think that there’s actually an opportunity for Australia to play a leadership role within the region, to bring some of the nations being affected together with the UNHCR and start looking at some of the issues. Why does it take so long for the UNHCR to process people when they’re in their camps?
GILBERT
Sure. But this is an immediate problem now. What should happen now? Should Thailand, Indonesia and others be called on to take in the people who are floating off their coastlines?
THISTLETHWAITE
Well look, I understand that there’s an international conference on this issue coming up in a couple of weeks’ time, and Australia should play a role in that. I don’t that we should be forcing other nations into situations that they may not be able to handle, and it is a fact that some of these nations aren’t signatories to the convention. But Australia can play a leadership role in encouraging cooperation, doing our bit. I think there’s probably room for Australia to look at increasing our intake, it certainly was Labor’s policy when we were in government to increase the intake to twenty thousand, and then look to increase it to twenty seven thousand.
GILBERT
It seems a bit more urgent than that, though. That’s the problem right now, more than conferences and discussion points. This is immediate, this is an immediate threat right now.
THISTLETHWAITE
Yeah, and I think Australia needs to play a role in that, in looking at an immediate solution to some of these issues. But again, it’s very difficult for us to be forcing other nations into situations when they may not be signatories to the convention, when they may not have had to deal with many of these issues in the past and they may not have the domestic capabilities to handle it.
GILBERT
Let’s move on to the issue of an iron ore enquiry. You’ve heard what Don Argus and others have had to say. Scott Ryan, your view on it?
RYAN
Well, it’s not my job as a politician to make sure any company makes a profit. I didn’t see Andrew Forrest complaining about people injecting new volumes of iron ore in the market when he was establishing Fortescue as the incredible success that it is. The important thing here is that the Australian Government is not going to be regulating the iron ore market. We have no capacity to regulate the price of iron ore, we supply just under a third of the world’s iron ore. And anyone saying that we’ve got the capacity to impact the global iron ore price is delusional.
GILBERT
So, you think some of the rhetoric is a bit over the top from the former BHP boss and other in this debate?
RYAN
No, no. I actually think that the point Don Argus made was that we have to be very wary about sending inappropriate signals to large buyers of our commodities. I think that the point Don Argus made was quite reasonable. I think that there are some out there who are trying to create this myth that somehow parliament or government can regulate the iron ore price, either for their benefit or the benefit of their companies or, indirectly, the Australian taxpayers. And that’s delusional.
GILBERT
So you’re suggesting that that argument, coming from Fortescue then, that there should be more done?
RYAN
Well, Andrew Forrest didn’t say this when he was injecting huge volumes of iron ore into the market when he was establishing Fortescue. It’s not my job to ensure the profitability of any company in Australia.
GILBERT
Alright, so you don’t support a parliamentary enquiry?
RYAN
Well I think that’s a matter for deliberation by the Senate and by the Government. I think the important point is to set some parameters if there was to be such an enquiry. As a general rule getting access to information, it needs to be done in a way that respects commercial confidentiality. There’s no role here for politicians and bureaucrats to be looking at contracts between private companies just because a couple of players in the market are complaining that some other companies do it cheaper. I mean the important thing to remember here is that there is no allegation of predatory pricing, there is no allegation of producing or selling iron ore at below cost. BHP and Rio are doing exactly what their shareholders expect them to do: getting a return on their investment.
GILBERT
Ok, let’s just wrap up. Matt Thistlethwaite, let’s just finish on a lighter note and I think that it’s important that we do this, Matt and Scott, to get your thoughts on this diplomatic row with the United States after the dogs, Johnny Depp’s dogs, were sent home. Have a look.
(Video of John Oliver discussing Barnaby Joyce and Johnny Depp’s dogs)
So, a diplomatic row with the United States. How do we resolve it?
RYAN
Well I think that clip concluded with a gun sight targeted as a threat to a baby Koala at the Los Angeles zoo. We’ve obviously got to step in and save the Koala.
GILBERT
Alright. Matt Thistlethwaite, I won’t put you on the spot there, mate, but I’m sure you enjoyed the John Oliver and we’ll chat to you soon. A quick break, back in just a moment.
(ENDS)