Topics: Minister Assisting the Cabinet Secretary, economic indicators, National Economic Plan, Government support for the car industry, climate change policies,
E&OE…
RAF EPSTEIN:
Today, joining me in the Melbourne studio is Scott Ryan. He is a Liberal senator for Victoria. He is also the Special Minister of State and Minister Assisting the Cabinet Secretary, Arthur Sinodinos. So he has a whole array of miscellaneous tasks he looks after for the Prime Minister, including looking after the cabinet agenda. Scott, welcome.
SENATOR SCOTT RYAN:
Good afternoon Raf.
EPSTEIN:
That’s right, isn’t it? The cabinet agenda goes through you and Arthur Sinodinos, that’s right isn’t it? Not that you can control it, but you sort of order it?
SENATOR RYAN:
I work with Arthur in coordinating a lot of the things in government that are outside one portfolio. It is actually one of the big challenges of government, no matter who is there. An education problem could be related to, for example, social services or a health issue, and that’s one of the things we try and do: cross-portfolio coordination, we call it.
EPSTEIN:
Sounds scintillating.
SENATOR RYAN:
I think Mark had a similar role at some point.
MARK DREYFUS:
I have been the cabinet secretary and I have to say, it is a fantastically interesting role. It is whole of government so you get to see a great many things that, as an individual minister, you might not and it’s quite a key role.
SENATOR RYAN:
We agreed. We started off and we agreed.
EPSTEIN:
Isn’t that a beautiful thing.
SENATOR RYAN:
It’s because you changed the name of the segment.
EPSTEIN:
And you see, they both told the truth.
Mark Dreyfus, I should mention, is the Labor Member for the seat of Isaacs in Melbourne’s south-east. He is the shadow attorney general in Bill Shorten’s shadow cabinet, he is also the shadow minister for national security.
Let’s start with the growth figure. We know there is a GDP figure for each year. Hopefully it’s between three and four per cent. We have been running into trouble since the mining boom left us behind. For the first time in a long time – the figure is released every three months – the economy contracted by 0.5 per cent in the September quarter, the first decline since March 2011 and the worst performance for the economy since the GFC. The Treasurer, Scott Morrison addressed the issue today.
[AUDIO CLIP FROM TREASURER]Scott Ryan, it’s not what you promised, it’s not jobs and it’s certainly not growth.
SENATOR RYAN:
As the Treasurer said, it is important and it’s not insignificant. It is important to remember also, these figures do get revised, they’ve bounced around by more than that in the past, but as the Treasurer said, this is a reminder that you don’t get economic growth organically, it doesn’t just happen, it is actually a result of a policy environment.
EPSTEIN:
You would be tearing strips off Labor if, after four years, they had a negative growth rate.
SENATOR RYAN:
Look, we have attempted and, at many steps of the way, been stymied by the Labor Party for addressing a number of the issues that were specifically highlighted in today’s national accounts. So for example, the construction sector, which is just under 10 per cent of our economy, Labor has been stymying reform in that sector that we know will make it more efficient, that we know will make it cheaper to build and will provide more, better paying jobs.
We know that every period of economic growth this country has had has been proceeded by a period of budget consolidation, by bringing the books back to balance. We have been trying to do that for several years, we have had occasional involvement from the Labor Party …
EPSTEIN:
Is the figure Labor’s fault?
SENATOR RYAN:
No, the point I’m making here Raf, is that we’ve got a whole series of policies that we have taken to the election over and over again, and tried to implement, and we get stymied on trying to do so. We are trying to find alternatives to achieve those objectives we know underpin growth: balancing the budget and providing a certain investment environment.
In the 1980s, the Hawke-Keating government was trying to address this very problem: lower corporate and business investment, insufficient investment driving economic growth. On those measures of balancing the budget and reforming the economy, that is exactly where the Coalition supported the Labor Party.
EPSTEIN:
I might ask Mark about the history, my 1980s history is not that good.
Mark Dreyfus, you had some bad economic numbers when you were in government. Is it all the government?
DREYFUS:
Of course it’s not all the government, but equally, you don’t get to blame Labor when you’ve been in government for three years, now more, three and a half years. This so-called plan for jobs and growth, which the Government took to the election, isn’t just an empty slogan, it’s becoming a national joke. What these figures show, we’ve got, as Labor’s been saying for some time, record under-employment and record low wages growth, and the Government is simply not paying enough attention to these matters. It’s no answer for Scott Ryan to say ‘oh Labor did this, or Labor did that’. Three and a half years into your term of government, or now second term of government, it’s up to the Government to actually do something.
SENATOR RYAN:
We’d like to be able to. I mean, we met late last week again because for a tenth of our economy, our construction sector, Mark Dreyfus here, was happy to …
EPSTEIN:
ABCC doesn’t affect the entire construction sector [inaudible] …
SENATOR RYAN:
As Robert Gottliebsen wrote today, it has a massive impact on the viability and strength of the sub-contracting sector, those small businesses …
EPSTEIN:
Do you really expect people to believe that Labor’s opposition to a new construction watchdog has a big impact that’s led us to a potential recessionary quarter?
SENATOR RYAN:
Paul Keating said this about the 1980s, as did Peter Costello about his era, when you are looking at driving economic growth, every little bit counts. You want to remove all the barnacles, you want to remove all the barriers to economic growth, to productivity, to efficiency. One of the reasons that the ABCC is so important is that it liberates those people mentioned; the thousands of small businesses that are currently hamstrung by Mark’s union mates, who use big business to tie them to contracts that are uneconomic. So every little bit, every time we make a little step towards balancing the budget is important. Every time we make our tax system more competitive and the more investment we get from overseas is important.
EPSTEIN:
Mark, when you respond, would it have been different? I mean the election was a close-run thing. Economies are big ships in narrow channels, would it have been different under Labor?
DREYFUS:
We won’t know, it may have been because we would have taken certain steps that this Government has not been interested in. But the idea that the ABCC legislation is going to have, I would argue, any impact, any noticeable macro-economic effect, I think is delusional.
SENATOR RYAN:
How would it be different Mark? Raf asked you that.
EPSTEIN:
Let’s step away from the watchdog. My greatest fear, and it’s actually something I raised previously with Scott was in – and I’ll repeat the numbers because they are of great concern to me – in the last two years, these are ABS statistics, one in 20 jobs that have been created are private sector and full-time. It’s quite apparent to me, and it’s something that I’ve been talking about for a few years, I’m not sure governments get to have that much of an impact, in fact, it might be that governments have less control than they have ever had. Is there something that government can specifically do?
SENATOR RYAN:
Raf, what that tells us is that you need to have more private sector full-time job growth.
EPSTEIN:
I know that, but how do you get it?
SENATOR RYAN:
Well you don’t get it through tax increases. You don’t get it through blocking a more competitive tax system. You don’t get it through hamstringing the construction sector and other areas, like the transport sector, with union-friendly deals. One of the reasons we don’t have the strong economic growth in the private sector is because of the investment risk. Labor brought in a policy that was basically going to shut down the small business road transport sector. It was going to put them out of business – not the word from me, the words from hundreds of truckies. We know what they’ve done to the construction sector. I share your concern, but the way to address it is not through more regulation and tax increases.
EPSTEIN:
Mark?
DREYFUS:
The idea that you should bring road safety into this discussion is again misconceived. I don’t make any apology for us trying to improve the safety on Australian roads and the safety of truck drivers.
SENATOR RYAN:
[inaudible]
DREYFUS:
It did not put tens of thousands of people out of work, it’s nonsense to suggest it does. The reaction of this Government to abolish the regulator, which is what they did on road safety, was simply wrong. This Government simply hasn’t got a plan. It is apparent that it doesn’t have a plan. It went to the election saying ‘we have a plan for jobs and growth’. What is that plan for jobs and growth? All I hear from Scott Ryan, all I hear from Mr Morrison is something that Labor is meant to have done, or ‘Labor’s blocking this’ or ‘Labor’s not doing that’. What’s the plan is the answer and Scott Ryan needs to actually say what is the plan.
EPSTEIN:
I will let callers decide. Jobs and growth, we all know that that is the Coalition’s either plan or slogan, depending on who it’s coming from. 1300 222 774 is the phone number. You can question and feel free to pass judgement as well. The concern I’ve often expressed: I’m not sure governments of any colour have too much control. But 1300 222 774.
[READS TEXT MESSAGES]The other issue that has been running, of course, is climate change. The Government is, next year, going to review it gets to its emissions reduction by the end of the year. We will get into whether or not there has been a significant change prompted by the right wing of the Government. But Michael’s in Yarraville first, Michael, what did you want to say?
[CALLER ON GOVERNMENT SUPPORT FOR INDUSTRY]
SENATOR RYAN: Well, we outlined at the election – we’ve now got the sixth highest tax rate in the OECD, it’s impacting investment and we’re a country that has always depended on foreign investment. The caller, I’ve forgotten the gentleman’s name I’m afraid …
EPSTEIN:
Michael.
SENATOR RYAN:
Michael, I’m not a believer, and the industry plans that some people want, don’t work. The only thing that creates long-term, sustainable jobs is a competitive private sector economy. Every dollar of tax we raise comes out of someone’s pocket, it is always a dead-weight loss on the economy – we can argue about the degree – but the idea that we can actually protect industries, the idea that we can say ‘we are going to be manufacturing’ in this world where we can’t compete on labour costs, due to Labor’s policies we are not allowed to compete on energy costs, we don’t want to compete on environmental standards, we need to actually liberate business to enable them to create those jobs. It is the only thing that makes them sustainable.
EPSTEIN:
Mark, would this be different under Labor?
DREYFUS:
I think that we would be very different. I think we would not be pursuing $50 billion in tax cuts, which is what this Government took to the election.
EPSTEIN:
I understand you don’t like that, but would job creation and economic growth be different?
DREYFUS:
Oh, I’m sure. I don’t think we would have gotten rid of the car industry in the way that this Government just kissed it goodbye.
SENATOR RYAN:
Well they left.
DREYFUS:
They were goaded. General Motors-Holden was goaded into leaving.
SENATOR RYAN:
They asked for billions of dollars of money out of taxpayers. If you want to go to the pensioners and workers of Australia and say ‘you have to pay tax to guarantee the profits of companies that are multi-billion dollar companies’, then feel free to say so.
DREYFUS:
The 13 countries in the world that have a car industry are all supporting their car industries, and it would be in Australia’s best interests if we continued with that.
SENATOR RYAN:
Who pays the tax that pays General Motors’ profits?
EPSTEIN:
Gentlemen, let’s hear from Gordon in Altona. Gordon, what did you want to say?
[CALLER ON TRADE UNION ROYAL COMMISSION]I know there are a thousand charges, or a thousand recommendations for charges, I think, from the Royal Commission.
SENATOR RYAN:
To be fair, we have an independent director of public prosecutions and the decision to take a prosecution action is not a matter that is left to politicians, no matter who is in office. The brief of evidence goes to the police and then they handle it.
EPSTEIN:
Is your point [caller] that there are terrible problems with trade unions, or you don’t believe there are substantial problems with trade unions?
[CALLER CONTINUES SUPPORTING TRADE UNIONS]I will see if we can fact check where those charges are from the Royal Commission. Let’s get a quick traffic check first.
[TRAFFIC REPORT]Scott Ryan from the Government, Mark Dreyfus is with me from the Labor Party. So is the Government’s climate policy firm and assured? Or is it pulled a little to the right by some in the party? This was the Environment Minister Josh Frydenberg on the ABC on Monday. They’re reviewing their way to get to a lower emission future. He appeared to, in fact he talked about, a cap and trade scheme for the electricity sector. Have a listen.
[AUDIO CLIP OF ENVIRONMENT AND ENERGY MINISTER]We want to hear from the experts. Wait and see. There is no ruling out of cap and trade for the electricity industry there. One day later on Macquarie Radio, he denied talking about it.
[AUDIO CLIP OF ENVIRONMENT AND ENERGY MINISTER]He did mention an emissions intensity scheme on Monday. On Wednesday he said he did not. Scott Ryan, what’s happening?
SENATOR RYAN:
I’ve been in the Parliament for eight and a half years, we are not going to be introducing Labor’s policy of a carbon tax and emissions trading scheme or intensity scheme. We don’t believe that we should be forcing up energy prices that will price people out of their homes.
EPSTEIN:
Why was it spoken about?
SENATOR RYAN:
I think, again, let’s reflect on this. I heard the interview on Monday and that was in, sort of, a bit of to-ing and fro-ing in the interview. It isn’t in any of the documentation, he is quite right about that.
EPSTEIN:
There is only a page of documentation.
SENATOR RYAN:
It’s a page of a review’s terms of reference. But what he said on Monday, really? Does that warrant the media coverage of ‘wow some allegation that the Liberal Party or the Coalition has changed their position’. This is one of the reasons that people lose a little bit of faith in the process when the comment Josh made just there …
EPSTEIN:
So this is the media’s fault? The media is making too much of it?
SENATOR RYAN:
No, no. But literally, one phrase? I don’t know about you, if you review every day you do on radio. I know every time I come off, I don’t think about every word, that I could have got something wrong, every phrase could have come out differently. That gets turned into, somehow, we are changing policy. I don’t buy it.
Yeah, he clearly did mention it the day before, but I’ll tell you, I’ve been in Parliament since 2008, I was there when we had the debate in 2009 and 2010 and it’s settled. We oppose a carbon tax, an emissions trading scheme and an emissions intensity scheme.
DREYFUS:
We had a glimmer of backbone for less than 24 hours and now, rightly, there are headlines across Australia – the one from The Guardian is the best one – what an extraordinary, gutless capitulation by Josh Frydenberg. And that’s what it is. This is meant to be a review.
EPSTEIN:
Would the Coalition really ever entertain something that they lost a leader over and fought an election on?
DREYFUS: We need a review because we’ve got no proper climate change policies in this country that could possibly get us to the targets, even the modest targets that have been adopted by this Government. The idea that you can have a review, but rule out any form of carbon pricing, which is the least cost, most efficient means of reducing Australia’s carbon emissions, makes the Government look like the ridiculous outfit that it is.
SENATOR RYAN:
That’s a bumper sticker, Raf. The reality is …
EPSTEIN: Let Mark finish.
DREYFUS:
That is not. The OECD, the International Energy Agency and just about every economist in the world agrees that the least cost, most efficient of reducing emissions is some form of pricing of carbon. So I was very pleased to hear Josh Frydenberg, on Monday, leave open the possibility that an emissions intensity scheme, which is a form of carbon pricing that’s been around for quite a while …
EPSTEIN:
I should say, for clarification too, that is the policy Labor took to the last election: a cap and trade for the electricity industry. Something like that.
DREYFUS:
Something like it. But it is also a scheme that was designed for the Liberal Party as a baseline and credit scheme some years back and we’ve got this ridiculous, ideologically driven, far right of the Liberal Party that is actually running the Government. It seems that Cory Bernardi might as well be prime minister because that’s the gutlessness that’s been demonstrated by Mr Turnbull and by Josh Frydenberg.
SENATOR RYAN:
Next thing Mark’s going to call for is George Brandis’ resignation because it’s Wednesday and he does it weekly.
DREYFUS: On the contrary [inaudible]. No I’ll answer that. George Brandis [inaudible].
SENATOR RYAN:
Everything Mark just said there actually translates as higher power bills at home and higher power bills in business and that’s the truth because that’s exactly what such a scheme is designed to achieve. Now, we don’t want to compete in this country on cheap labour, we don’t want to compete on lower environmental standards, we had an advantage on cheap energy and Labor’s policies are about driving our energy costs higher. I am quite happy to go to the next election and compete with Mark Dreyfus on the basis that I am not going to increase the power prices, be it gas or electricity. A 10 per cent increase is coming next year for every Victorian, on average, because Hazlewood is closing down. Labor criticised that, but they tried to close it down themselves and it didn’t get through Parliament.
DREYFUS:
We need to make an orderly transition to a lower carbon emissions world. That’s the direction the whole world is taking. Regrettably, we now have a Government that is dominated by far right, climate change deniers who …
SENATOR RYAN:
He won’t engage with the issue. He slurs people.
EPSTEIN:
You’ll get a chance.
DREYFUS:
You can say that’s a slur but what else is it to describe someone else as, some of those Liberals are climate change deniers when they don’t accept the reality of climate change. It’s inappropriate that we are doing so little about climate change, that’s what’s inappropriate.
SENATOR RYAN:
I think it is inappropriate to use the term ‘denier’ and I’ve said so before.
DREYFUS:
Cory Bernardi can speak for himself. Cory Bernardi doesn’t want any action on climate change and I don’t think Craig Kelly wants any action on climate change.
EPSTEIN:
He is a key backbencher.
DREYFUS:
And there are a range of other backbenchers, they are driving this Government’s policy. What an extraordinary, gutless capitulation by this Government within 24 hours of announcing a review, it’s extraordinary.
EPSTEIN:
Forgive me Scott, I’m not going to ask you for a response only because it is the last Fight Club for the year and I want to end it on a positive note if I can. The thing you are looking forward to most over the summer break assuming you both get a little bit of a break? Scott Ryan, what are you most looking forward to?
SENATOR RYAN:
I have a 15-week-old son who I haven’t seen a great deal of and I’m looking time to spending time with my family.
EPSTEIN:
Are you going away?
SENATOR RYAN:
I’ll spend a couple of weeks near the water in Queensland because holidays mean warm weather and water.
EPSTEIN:
Mark, what are you looking forward to?
DREYFUS:
I’m looking forward to spending time with my family, in particular my four-and-a-half-month-old grandson.
EPSTEIN:
Oh right, OK.
DREYFUS:
Who I’ve spent some time with, but who I’m looking forward to spending a lot more with, some of it down by the beach on the Surf Coast.
EPSTEIN:
Happy holidays gentlemen.
SENATOR RYAN:
Same to you.
DREYFUS:
Happy and safe Christmas to all your listeners.
(ENDS