Topics: ABC and SBS funding arrangements, Senator Jacqui Lambie.

E&OE…

RAFAEL EPSTEIN

So 10 per cent of the workforce is going – 300 straight away, 400 over time – that’s from the managing director, Mark Scott, head of the ABC – my boss of bosses. We’ll be joined by the Liberal Victorian Senator, Scott Ryan, in a moment. First, have a listen to the question in the Senate from Greens Senator, Scott Ludlam. The response is from Eric Abetz, who is the Government’s leader in the Senate.

AUDIO OF SENATOR SCOTT LUDLAM

Will the Government apologise to the Australian people and 400 staff of our national broadcaster who have lost their jobs for violating a clear and unambiguous pre-election commitment that there would be no cuts to the ABC and SBS?

AUDIO OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE

The leader of the Government in the Senate, representing the Prime Minister, Senator Abetz.

AUDIO OF SENATOR ERIC ABETZ

Mr President, two very quick answers – no and secondly, nobody has lost their job.

EPSTEIN

Then he sat down, so I’m not sure quite what that response means. But I’m sure Senator Scott Ryan can tell me – as I mentioned, Liberal Senator from the state of Victoria. Senator, good afternoon.

SCOTT RYAN

Good afternoon, Raf.

EPSTEIN

What did he mean? Because people are losing their jobs.

RYAN

Well, you’re going to have to ask Eric exactly. I assume he meant that these changes were announced today and they can still be a work-in-progress. It is, after all, up to the ABC to determine how to implement this particular funding efficiency that the Government has announced.

EPSTEIN

But in efficiencies, it’s sort of inevitable that it’s going to lead to job cuts, isn’t it? You might disagree about where.

RYAN

Yeah, look I think there is some disagreement about that. I assumed that Eric was referring to the fact that the announcement that was made today. Well, Scott Ludlam was talking in the past tense. The Government has made it clear, particularly Malcolm Turnbull, has put out details on how he thinks the efficiencies can be reached without any impact on programming.

EPSTEIN

A bit cute, though, isn’t it, saying there are no job cuts?

RYAN

Well, I just think he was answering – in Senate question time it can be a bit cute sometimes.

EPSTEIN

Sure, party pooper. Okay, so, is it a broken promise?

RYAN

Look, I’ll let others decide that, Raf. I think the issue here is that, to put that in context, under the Hawke and Keating Governments, the ABC was subject to the efficiency dividend, it was exempted from the efficiency dividend by the Howard Government in the first Costello Budget. The Rudd and Gillard Governments retained that, and the current Government has re-announced the efficiency dividend …

EPSTEIN

[Interrupts] Look, I’m happy to get into efficiency dividends and whether or not we should be more efficient, but it’s kind of a fair call, isn’t it, if someone says before the election ‘no cuts’, is it a fair call for me to ask you whether or not that’s a broken promise?

RYAN

Yes, and people will judge that. I think these particular announcements, particularly accompanied by the efficiency study and particularly accompanied by the detail the Minister has put out about how it can be done in a way that doesn’t impact programming, and given the efficiencies and the funding restrictions across other levels of government, it’s not unreasonable to ask the ABC to share that burden.

EPSTEIN

Do you give much merit to Mark Scott’s argument that every other media organisation that has been cut, they haven’t improved their quality? And while we haven’t had an efficiency cut at the ABC, they’ve made efficiencies and it’s those efficiencies that have funded iView and News24. The essential argument is that the ABC’s different, and the ABC’s created quality from its efficiency. Do you think there’s merit in that argument?

RYAN

Well, probably. I think Mark Scott knows the organisation better than I do. But also, there was a piece in The Age this morning that outlined how former employees thought the ABC hadn’t taken full advantage of technological changes that other media organisations had to reduce administrative costs and administrative burden. So there’s swings and roundabouts here.

I’m an ABC user – I enjoy using it and I make great use of iView with my son and Peppa Pig as so many parents of young children do. But I think there is always room for seeking further efficiencies, particularly in large organisations that have had particularly stable funding and haven’t been subject to commercial pressures. As I said before, Malcolm has outlined in great detail how he thinks these can be achieved without any impact on programming, and after all it is the programming that people value about the ABC, not the back office operations.

EPSTEIN

Absolutely. Look, 1300 222 774 is the phone number. I also want to ask Senator Scott Ryan – because I can’t work it out in my own mind – what it means now that Jacqui Lambie has leapt from the PUP boat. But first, Scott Ryan, just on the ABC, is part of the cut because of the very strong arguments made in various News Corporation newspapers? Did that have an influence on the cut?

RYAN

I don’t think so. I think the point here is that every part of government has been asked to subject itself to the funding restraints we find ourselves in because of the deficit we’ve inherited, which has been made worse and which is worse than it was 18 months ago because of the behaviour of Labor and the Greens. I’ve been on this program with you Raf previously talking about some of those issues…

EPSTEIN

[Interrupts] But to go back to those strong criticisms, I mean I had Chris Kenny on the show last week. He and others in The Australian especially have been arguing vociferously for something bigger than this – is that an element in the Government decision?

RYAN

I wouldn’t think so at all. I mean, I think it’s always valid to have an argument about expenditure of money, and particularly about the role of the public broadcaster so I encourage that debate but I don’t think that debate in particular guides any decision in this sense.

EPSTEIN

Do you think the Coalition is upset? I mean, I lived through the John Howard budget cuts to the ABC. It seems to me that the very things that incense the Coalition and its supporters about the ABC are the very last things to be cut. We will lose the ABC office in Morwell and the 7.30 Victoria edition. There will be no change to the way news is presented about the Federal Government and the state Coalition. Does the Coalition find that frustrating?

RYAN

Well, our position is that we need to make the savings across government, and we’re very clear that these are decisions that the ABC management team and the board have to take. Now, there’s no role for government in deciding how the ABC spends its money. But that doesn’t mean I don’t there [inaudible]…

EPSTEIN

[Interrupts] I don’t know, there’s a fair few of your supporters…

RYAN

[Interrupts] I agree, but that’s a debate for another day…

EPSTEIN

[Interrupts] There’s a fair few of your supporters who’d like you to have a say in perceived bias.

RYAN

To be fair, I think that’s a different issue. We could have a long discussion, Raf, about the voices, the role of balance and we could have a separate discussion about funding arrangements and I don’t think the two are linked, and I don’t think the two should be linked. I will never support a politician directing a news organisation or a media organisation how it should do its job.

EPSTEIN

Okay, so give me your best guess because I’m trying to work out in my mind around Jacqui Lambie – I don’t know for sure the most important element of the question now. Do you think Ricky Muir is solidly with Clive Palmer? Because that gives Clive Palmer three votes – that’s effectively a blocking veto. Is Ricky Muir solidly with the Palmer United senators still, do you think?

RYAN

Well, honestly I think you’d need to ask Ricky the status of his arrangement with Clive. I haven’t heard him say anything; I have heard a statement from Clive Palmer saying it’s still in place. The basic arithmetic is exactly as it was last week. When the Greens and Labor oppose something, the Coalition needs the support of six out of the eight crossbenchers, and that hasn’t changed.

EPSTEIN

So it doesn’t change with Jacqui Lambie not being a part of the party?

RYAN

I don’t think it does. It, in the end – and we saw there was internal debate within the Clive Palmer grouping plus Ricky Muir on a number of issues – that wasn’t sufficient to get the passage of legislation that we were putting up; we still had to deal with other crossbenchers as well because we needed the six out of the eight. I don’t think this profoundly changes it because we still need six out of eight.

EPSTEIN

Although, I mean I was thinking it could actually be easier for the Government because you’ve effectively got four groups of two. If Ricky Muir does split off with Jacqui Lambie on an issue, then the Government is in a stronger position because you’ve got four mini blocs and you can play them off against each other to get three. Doesn’t that, in some circumstances, make the Government’s life a little simpler and easier?

RYAN

I think sometimes, Raf, when people don’t know the people involved, it can be easier to talk in blocs. But I know Nick Xenophon – we started in the Senate on the same day – I know Bob Day, I know David Leyonhjelm – I’ve known those for longer than I’ve been here. It’s not about blocs, it’s really about individuals. They all have really strong views, they all quite rightly have a mandate that they want to bring to the Parliament and they all consider issues separately. It is actually much more about the individuals than it is about blocs.

EPSTEIN

Okay. Look Senator, thank you for your time.

RYAN

Thanks, Raf.

(Ends)