Topics: funding for political parties
E&OE…
Chris Hammer
We’re joined now by Labor MP Ed Husic in the studio, and via Skype in Melbourne, Victorian Liberal Senator Scott Ryan. Good morning, gentlemen.
Ed Husic
Morning. Morning, Scott.
Scott Ryan
Morning, Ed. Morning, Chris.
Hammer
Senator, to you first. These revelations about the Liberal Party at the ICAC in New South Wales, revelations that illegal donations from property developers have been washed through Canberra, your Senate colleague Bill Heffernan is outraged. He says that anyone involved, to quote, “should have their balls cut off”. If [Liberal Party] federal director Brian Loughnane knew about this version of donations, should he resign?
Ryan
Well let’s take a step back here for a minute, Chris. This is an enquiry in New South Wales about New South Wales politics and it will run its course. And what we’ve heard are various witness statements, but it’s months yet until the Commissioner, I understand, comes out with any determination. There’s been no implication nor accusation of the involvement of the federal Liberal Party in this whatsoever.
Hammer
I think there has been: that it’s been washed through the Free Enterprise Foundation in Canberra. Is Bill Heffernan wrong then to suggest that federal figures are involved?
Ryan
Well, I’m not going to comment on what a colleague from New South Wales says. Bill is a former party president of the New South Wales division, but these revelations, as you described them, are all about what’s happened in New South Wales politics. There is an enquiry going on, let’s wait and see what happens. But let’s also not forget that the enquiry about the involvement of money in politics has also involved the Labor Party; Obeid is the name that shall never be mentioned. I mean Labor’s keen to talk about anything to avoid discussing their own record and their own shameful record of government in New South Wales.
Hammer
Ok, can I put the question another way? If Brian Loughnane didn’t know money was being washed through Canberra, that this activity was going on, should he resign then? In other words is he damned if he knew and damned if he didn’t?
Ryan
Chris, you’re using phrases there that are loaded and that are not supported by any evidence whatsoever. There’s been no accusation of federal involvement in this whatsoever, it’s Labor throwing muck.
Hammer
Arthur Sinodinos is another federal Senator.
Ryan
It’s about what has happened in New South Wales, and there’s an enquiry going on, so let’s actually wait and see what it says. Phrases that you’re using there are just trying to effectively cast aspersions on people without any evidence.
Hammer
Ok. Ed Husic? He’s made that point, fair enough.
Husic
Well you touched on a point that I was going to make, which is the suggestion that there’s no federal implications flies in the face of reality. Insofar as there were no federal characters involved, why don’t we have an Assistant Treasurer? The fact of the matter is that this has actually touched on both sides of politics, and on our side of politics it’s had a terrible impact. And we’ve had the name of the party sullied as a result of the actions of people within our party, and we’ve been upfront in trying to deal with that as well and taken steps actually to improve the way. For instance we improved the selection of candidates, we do the checks on the backgrounds of candidates and we tighten up the way that we operate. The first step in fixing yourself is an admission of error, we don’t see that out of the federal Liberal party, other than to say Senator Heffernan was taking a rather colourful approach to dealing with matters.
Hammer
Ok. Can I ask you this then: there seems to be a problem with the system of donations that’s quite opaque, if you want to donate and remain anonymous and donate to a major political party, the money can be washed through one of these third party organisations – in this case the Free Enterprise Foundation. Do these electoral laws need to be changed at both a state and federal level?
Husic
Federal Labor actually wanted to improve and we made moves to reduce the thresholds for reporting to make it a lot more transparent. And we’ve always stood by making those actions injected within the system to do just like what you’re saying, which is to make it a lot more open, know where the money’s going, where it’s coming from. And I think that will continually be a pressure on the system and it needs to be. I think the revelation that of the last few days, in terms of the way that donations for donations, or donations for questions I should put it – it’s wrong of me to put it the other way – do raise questions about the way money’s being raised and used. And the washing through other bodies, in breach of New South Wales law, they’re pretty serious allegations that need to be dealt with.
Hammer
Ok. Senator Ryan, would do you think about…?
Ryan
…on the slur he put in place just there, he tried to slip it in by alleging somehow there were donations, and somehow that related to activity in Parliament. Now let’s be clear about this, you can read those emails on the Fairfax website and there is nothing to them at all. There’s nothing to them other than information from a business being passed on to an opposition that’s position on the carbon tax was one of the most well-known issues prosecuted by any opposition in recent political history. I had emails like that myself, where we had example after example coming from businesses saying ‘this is an issue you can highlight showing how damaging this will be’. And that is a cowardly slur by a Labor Party that is desperately trying to run away from its litany of sins in New South Wales, and it has no basis in evidence at all.
Hammer
But doesn’t the Liberal Party leave itself open to these sorts of slurs given the opacity of the system? We simply do not know who’s donating money to the Liberal Party. Does the system need to be reformed?
Ryan
No, at the federal level there is no accusation other than from the…
Hammer
What about at the state level?
Ryan
As members of the federal parliament we don’t pass laws about state elections, Chris. The state parliaments are responsible for running their own elections.
Hammer
So is it ok to circumvent those laws?
Ryan
At the federal level there is no accusation, no evidence and no example of any of these sorts of allegations whatsoever. Our federal political system, we have donation disclosure of anything over I think about $11,500 these days, it’s transparent. Some people argue it could be made more timely, and I know there have been discussions around that in the past because things can be declared more regularly and more easily now. But there is no implication, no accusation that any of these sorts of events have happened in federal parliament.
Hammer
Are you saying that no donors remain anonymous by donating money to the federal party via these third party fundraising forums?
Ryan
I have sat on the Joint Standing Committee of Electoral Matters up until the last election for about five years. I have never heard those accusations made, even by people who wanted to ban donations all together. The real issue here, which people seem to forget Chris, is that under the last parliament when the CFMEU, who donated millions of dollars to the ALP, wanted laws changed Labor changed them. When the TWU wanted trucking laws changed, donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Labor Party, the Labor Party changed them. The Labor Party is wholly owned by these groups and it changes laws for their benefit.
Hammer
Isn’t that the point, though? We know the unions are donating money to the Labor Party, it’s not clear who’s donating money to the Liberal Party state and federal.
Ryan
No one has ever alleged, at least in my time on the Joint Committee of Electoral Matters, that money wasn’t being disclosed when it was donated to the Liberal Party, or indeed to the Labor Party.
Husic
Can I just intervene, my understanding is that, and I’m happy to stand corrected on this, is that Brickworks made a donation to the federal level of which part of it was siphoned through a body, I think the name Menzies Group, and went back to New South Wales. Now Brickworks has, within its operations property development, and there’s enough to suggest that that would have been a breach of the New South Wales law, so I think those are pretty serious allegations right there and I just say you’ve just got to judge by the tenor of this interview. I mean I’ve already said that we’ve admitted that we have done wrong, and we’ve put in place steps to correct that. The Liberal Party can turn a blind eye to that if they wish, but I think that the public is breathing down its neck, and rightly down all parties’ necks to be up front about where they get donations and how they manage them. You’ll have mistakes within the system where people may not have reported on things that they should have, and if they correct it and are up front about it so be it; but I think if the Liberal Party wants to take the type of approach we’re hearing today then, which is to deny that they’ve done anything wrong and then turn their back to the other party without accepting responsibility, then we’re going to keep manifesting these problems.
Hammer
Scott Ryan.
Ryan
Don’t put words in my mouth, Ed. I said that there’s….
(inaudible)
Husic
I think you’re going to cop the same treatment back.
Ryan
I made the point about News South Wales that there is an enquiry going on into New South Wales. Let’s wait and see….
(inaudible)
Hammer
Let Senator Ryan have his right of response.
Ryan
At the federal level, Ed, I have never been aware of accusations of breaches of the electoral laws. Now I’ve never seen allegations made about any of the major parties, that’s the point I was making.
Husic
What you’re saying is during your time on a committee you didn’t hear allegations made, but in the last few days allegations, quite separate to your participation on that committee, have been made. That, basically as I’ve just outlined a few moments ago, you claimed there was no evidence. There seems to be claims being made that this is happening.
Ryan
There’s no evidence, Ed, an accusation is not evidence. Let’s just wait and see what the New South Wales commission says before there’s a knee-jerk reaction where Labor is desperate to try and create some false moral equivalents between their sinful conduct when they were in government. Let’s wait and see what ICAC says.
Husic
…why have we lost a New South Wales Premier? Why have we got a conga line of New South Wales ministers? You’ve lost Barry O’Farrell and you’ve lost a stack of ministers. But if you think there’s nothing wrong, let’s…
Hammer
Senator Ryan, let’s just…can I ask you this: you say you’ve seen no evidence that federal electoral laws have been broken, isn’t that the issue though? Isn’t there a need to reform federal electoral laws if there’s not enough transparency? Do you think there’s any case for reform at all?
Ryan
Well, Chris, I think that’s a bit of a circular argument. There’s no evidence of laws being broken, therefore we need to pass laws so they get broken to justify reform, is what you’re essentially saying. We have a disclosure threshold at the federal level of just over $11,000 or $12,000 and it gets indexed, if I recall. There haven’t been any of these sorts of allegations that have been levelled in New South Wales about Federal Government. And while there can be a discussion about more timely disclosure, because technology does make that a lot easier than when these laws were first put in place in the mid-1980s, I don’t think we should jump to conclusions about flaws in a federal political system that, over the course of more than a century, hasn’t had some of the problems that have been highlighted at state level.
Hammer
Ok. Ed Husic, can we turn to Labor now? We know the unions give a great deal of money to the Labor Party, and that’s transparent. What is not so transparent is what goes on inside some of these unions, the operation of slush funds so one group can take control of a union and not another. That’s going to be front and centre today with Julia Gillard appearing before the Royal Commission into Trade Unions. Is it incumbent on Labor, in pointing the finger at the Liberal Party, to clean up your own backyard to trade unions?
Husic
We took steps through he last parliament to improve the governance of unions as well. To do some of the things that you’re saying, which is to be a lot more upfront with members about what you’re doing and to improve the skills, as well, of the people that sit around the management committees of unions too. Clearly you’ve got the Royal Commission going through this process as well, but we don’t have a problem if people want to undertake that, it’s evidence-based. But if it’s just going to be a mudslinging exercise as it degenerates, then I think that undermines the value of the process. But people, I don’t think people would be surprised that unions donate to the Labor Party because we’re sympathetic to the issues that unions raise on behalf of members. I’ve got no problem speaking, I don’t recall receiving any donations recently. I’m happy to have my record corrected by the TWU, but if people want to save truck drivers from losing their lives on the roads, and improving the laws about the way in which they transport goods and the expectations about them, then that’s a better thing for the public. I’ve got no problem supporting that campaign. I’ve got no problem supporting the campaigns a lot of unions raise on behalf of the public or its membership because I think they’re the right things to do.
Hammer
So, Senator Ryan, if you say there’s no evidence of the breach of electoral laws by the federal Liberal Party, surely applying that same test federal Labor can’t be held responsible for what’s going on within the internal politics of trade unions?
Ryan
Chris, in the last parliament Ed didn’t mention that they also passed laws that nobbled the Australian Building and Construction Commission. That has let the CFMEU run lawless around worksites. It is very rare that a court holds an organisation guilty of criminal contempt, but that’s what happened to the CFMEU with the Grocon blockade that blockaded parts of inner-city Melbourne for days and required hundreds of police merely to allow people to get to work. So when Ed talks about all the so-called transparency measures, let’s look at Labor’s record: they took the cop off the beat of Victorian building sites and the CFMEU has run amuck. We have building costs more than double figures percentages higher than Sydney. We have criminal conduct being exposed at the Royal Comission, that’s what Labor does for its union shareholders. They’re not just donors, Chris, they’re shareholders. They choose who goes into parliament, they choose who holds seats in the Senate and they write Labor policy.
Hammer
So if Labor’s to be held responsible for what happens in the CFMEU, why can’t the Liberal party be held responsible for what happens in the Free Enterprise Foundation?
Ryan
Well with the CFMEU, Labor changed the laws to take the cop off the beat. Labor changed the laws to exempt it from the laws that were in place that were trying to keep peace and order on Victorian building sites. That’s the point I’m making here, Chris, that they change the laws to remove some of the restrictions.
Husic
So here’s a hot tip: he’s not going to answer your question.
Hammer
Ok, I think we’ll leave it there. Gentlemen, thank you so much for your time this morning.
Ryan
Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Ed.
Husic
Thanks