Topics: section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act, counter-terrorism measures, Budget modelling and university deregulation
E&OE…
Callum Denness
I’m joined now by Senator Scott Ryan. Good morning Senator.
Scott Ryan
Morning Callum.
Denness
Were you surprised by the strong community reaction against changing 18C?
Ryan
Well I wasn’t surprised by the organised groups that opposed it. They were the same groups that had indicated their opposition to it before the election last year.
Denness
But it seems to have touched a public nerve. There were over 5000 submissions, most of them negative.
Ryan
Well I think there’re a lot of community leaders who opposed it, and I think those community leaders had indicated their views following the Andrew Bolt case which sparked this debate. So, what happened over the last few months around that didn’t surprise me particularly.
Denness
And are you comfortable with dropping those changes?
Ryan
Well the Prime Minister made a decision with the Cabinet that in the interests of the other priorities we have – those core priorities of protecting the community – it wasn’t appropriate to go forward with those proposals.
Denness
Ok, but in a perfect world do you think that 18C should have been changed? Notwithstanding these other priorities the Prime Minister mentioned.
Ryan
I am disappointed by the fact that this proposal is not going to be progressing, but I think the Prime Minister indicated something similar as well. It was a clash of priorities as he outlined on radio this morning.
Denness
Ok. The Prime Minister on radio this morning was speaking about plans to retain metadata. Who do you think should pay: consumers or ASPs?
Ryan
I think, in the end, that fees we all pay flow through the system. The Prime Minister made the point this morning, firstly that the package of specifics announced yesterday didn’t include that. The metadata issue is one that is going to consultation over the coming months. And the Prime Minister made the point on radio this morning that he was asking service providers to keep the data that they already kept, which has primarily been kept in the past for billing services.
Denness
Something that he also mentioned, and perhaps you can clarify it, in the interview he seemed to indicate that browsing history would also be included in this metadata to be stored. Is that correct?
Ryan
I’m afraid I’m not as technically across those details, Callum. I didn’t hear that part of the interview. The way I understand internet metadata being recorded is that it does actually record the websites one looks at, as well as the destinations and origins of emails. It records addresses rather than content. That’s the way I understand it, but I’m not as technically across those details.
Denness
Ok. Moving on from the technical element, the Prime Minister also indicated that metadata wouldn’t be restricted just to fighting terrorism, it may also be used for broader crime fighting. Is this correct? Because one of the major concerns people have had about this proposal is that it’s the thin end of a wedge.
Ryan
And I think this is one of the reasons that this whole process will be going through a consultation process over the coming months, as was announced yesterday. Let’s keep in mind that a lot of this data already exists and a lot of this data is already accessible by law enforcement agencies.
Denness
Ok, but what’s your view? Do you think that this metadata, once it is stored, should be used for broad crime-fighting or be restricted just to terrorism?
Ryan
Well, I think we’ve got to be careful about drawing an artificial line: community safety is actually community safety. Let’s wait and see what comes out of the consultation process. I’m not aware of what type of data is currently kept in great detail. This is a process that the Attorney General will be coordinating with the Minister for Communications over the coming months.
Denness
It’s just the concern of many people, about this metadata, has been that it would affect whistle-blowers and even journalists, and that’s the concern I guess if it is going to be used for broad crime-fighting purposes.
Ryan
And I think they are legitimate concerns, that’s why there was no specific proposal. I imagine one of the reasons why there was no specific proposal announced yesterday was that the Attorney General and the Minister for Communications will be conducting a consultation process. As the Prime Minister made clear, they are legitimate concerns, ones of privacy, and they need balanced against the needs for community safety.
Denness
Moving on. Modelling that’s usually included in budgets wasn’t in this Budget. Modelling of the kind that Fairfax Media published earlier in the week. Why wasn’t it in this Budget?
Ryan
Well that’s not my portfolio, Callum. I can’t answer questions as to what’s included in the Budget papers outside the education area. Look, as I understand it, it hasn’t always been included in the Budget it’s a table that’s been there for some time but it hasn’t always been in there.
Dennes
But for the past nine years…
Ryan
But obviously before that there was a different reason and different tables published.
Denness
Do you agree with the Treasurer when he criticised some of Fairfax’s Budget reporting as malevolent?
Ryan
Well I think there’s a legitimate criticism that only talks about payments as fairness in a Budget, that doesn’t also talk about the contribution of those who do pay tax. The truth is that we have a highly redistributive system in Australia. We have the top quarter of taxpayers paying roughly two thirds of all income tax, and that is very, very heavily redistributed to lower income earners. So, I think a fair discussion of the Budget does actually look at the burden of tax payments, as well as where those payments go.
Denness
Sure, but has Fairfax Media’s reporting of the Budget, do you think, been malevolent? Or is that a stronger description than you’d use?
Ryan
Well I don’t think that the report I saw earlier this week fairly conveyed the fact that there are a small number of taxpayers in Australia that pay quite a substantial amount of tax and there are quite a lot of people in Australia who do receive substantial tax transfers and payments from those people who do pay tax. And so I don’t think that only looking at the impact of payments on the Budget is the fairest way to look at it
Denness
Moving on, is the Government preparing to announce its changes to its HECS proposals?
Ryan
Well, we’ve always made clear that we will deal with the Senate crossbenchers with respect, and asking them to respect our mandate to govern, as well as respecting their mandate from their election. The Minister for Education, Christopher Pyne, is making an address to the National Press Club today and I understand that he will be talking about our higher education proposals.
Denness
And can we expect to see the Government conceding some ground on this, and potentially changing that six per cent interest rate on HECS loans?
Ryan
Well, let’s put that particular proposal in context. What it says is that the interest rate on HECS loans would become the same as the rate the Government borrows money at, because this expansion in higher education has actually been funded by increased Government borrowings because we inherited a deficit. Now that’s not a real interest rate that people pay on their credit card or for their car loan, we put a six per cent cap on it. And in years gone past, when inflation was high, it was quite possible for there to be a higher interest rate in nominal terms than six per cent. Specifics are a matter for the Minister though, and I’m sure he’ll have something to say today about the higher education proposals.
Denness
Ok, Senator Scott Ryan. Thanks for your time.
Ryan
Thanks, Callum.
(Ends)