Topics: Senate reform, Capital Gains Tax.

E&OE…

KIERAN GILBERT

With me on the program now I have the Minister for Vocational Education and Skills, Senator Scott Ryan and Labor frontbencher Matt Thistlethwaite; gentlemen good morning to you. I want to start with Matt on this issue because Labor had a number of figures on the Joint Parliamentary Committee for Electoral Matters, you supported the idea of optional preferential voting when it comes to Senate ballot papers, now its undemocratic according to Mr Albanese.

MATT THISTLETHWAITE

Well there’s a clear distinction here Kieran this is a different system, this isn’t the system that was recommended by the Joint Parliamentary Committee in the wake of the last election. I understand that there’s concern in the community about the…

GILBERT

What’s the difference?

THISTLETHWAITE

Well the difference is this time it’s an optional preferential system so you’ll be able to number above the line any set of numbers from 1 to 6 so you can number 1 to 3 if you like 1 to 2 and the other system that was recommended by the Joint Parliamentary Committee was mandatory numbering 1 to 6 above the line so there’s a clear difference there, couple that with the fact you’ll still be able to vote 1 above the line and you’ll still be able to number all of the boxes below the line to distribute preferences in accordance with the way you want to vote, so I need to be confident given that I represent a community that has had problems in the past with informality in voting that we’re not going to confuse the system further.

GILBERT

I would’ve thought you would have appreciated the fact people can go 1 to 3 as opposed to having mandatory 1 to 6 if you… that that you would think would reduce the number of informal votes.

THISTLETHWAITE

Well currently there’s two options, you vote either 1 above the line and the preferences are distributed according to how the parties lodge their tickets or you vote all of the numbers below the line, this is introducing a third option of numbering certain numbers above the line, we just need to be confident that that’s not going to confuse people any further and it has been rushed this is a new system it’s not the one that was recommended by the Joint Parliamentary Committee and I think it’s fair that there’s a process of consulting with the Australian public through an inquiry and getting their views about how it’s going to work.

GILBERT

Senator Ryan?

SENATOR RYAN

It actually is in essence the system recommended by the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters. It had Gary Gray and Alan Griffin, two senior Labor figures, a former national secretary of the ALP in Gary Gray who has made the point that the current system does not work.  Now,  Matt actually got a bit of the system wrong there, what we’re proposing is that you will be asked to number at least 1 to 6 above the line but to actually stop the informal vote – and to cover the exact issue Matt mentioned there if someone doesn’t do it because this is a change in the system – and they just number 1 as they currently would then the vote would still be counted so that savings provision is put in place exactly to lower the informal vote and correct the problem Matt said.  Labor has recommended this change, in essence it is the same but what we’ve got now is a situation where in the House you number your ballot paper and decide where your preferences go, what Labor is trying to defend is a situation where you have to put 1 above the line – and Kieran the 3 of us would have trouble on the AEC website finding out all the group voting tickets, parties can submit multiple group voting tickets so you find out a fraction  of your vote goes in different ways – what we’re saying is the vote is in the power of the person, if you just vote 1 it will still be…

GILBERT

Is this because of Labor solely for Labor’s own electoral prospect here because from what I can see this is would be a great step forward in terms of giving voters a better outcome that they had intended when they go to the ballot box as opposed to this opaque preference system which we’ve got at the moment which fosters preference whisperers and alike.

THISTLETHWAITE

For me it’s about ensuring that voters are clear about the system and how they’re going to be able to vote, it’s about ensuring that we’re not confusing people even further and as I said you’re introducing a third option here…

GILBERT

If you’ve got this back-up of a safety provision for the people who might not know that the number all to 6 if the preferences are exhausted on whatever boxes they tick, surely that’s enough to satisfy Labor, if it’s not just about your own electoral prospects?

THISTLETHWAITE

The public haven’t been consulted about this Kieran, so let’s get the feedback from the public and let’s see if that is the view that comes out about this new electoral system, but as I said you’re introducing a third system into Senate voting which has been quite confusing in the past, we need to be confident and I need to be confident for the electorate that I represent that we’re not going to confuse people even further and I think there’s nothing wrong with doing due diligence on a new electoral system that is probably going to last for the next 20 or 30 years that’s the proper way to implement policy in this country and that’s why Labor does its due diligence on policy…

GILBERT

You had a joint electoral committee look at this…

THISTLETHWAITE

It’s a different system Kieran.

RYAN

You introduced optional preferential voting in NSW, you did it for the upper house, you did it for the lower house, you introduced it in Queensland. This  histrionic hyperbole and the manufactured numbers about the claims of informal votes are not backed up by the legislation. This has the safety provision that will actually save more votes than the current system, we’ve introduced more provisions so then if people choose to number below the line it will still be counted if you make 5 mistakes, currently it’s only 3, we ask you to number 1 to 6 above the line but if you only number 1 your vote will still be counted…

THISTLETHWAITE

What if you number 1 to 3?

RYAN

It will still be counted.

THISTLETHWAITE

There you go. There is confusion already.

RYAN

There is not, Your histrionics here betray your true agenda which is Labor walking away from commitments that Gary Gray gave and said the system doesn’t work at the moment, the system that sees votes divided into fractions on tickets they can’t determine is not working, voters who control their preferences like they do in the House where they number the ballot paper, that’s where their vote goes.

THISTLETHWAITE

Look it’s a different system to the one that was recommended by the Joint Parliamentary Committee so this is a deal that’s been done between the Greens and the Government at the last minute to introduce a system that’s completely different to the one that was recommended by the Joint Parliamentary Committee, now me as a local representative I feel that I can’t make a decision on this until I’ve consulted with my community about the confusion about it and whether we’ve had an inquiry.

GILBERT

Let’s move on to the issue of tax, are you comfortable where things are at right now, it seems there’s a fair bit of confusion within the Government’s ranks and in terms of Parliamentary performance hasn’t been easy.

RYAN

Kieran, as I said to you before I actually think the way that we’re going to talk about big policy changes in this country has profoundly changed – he fact that this debate and everything from the GST to negative gearing is happening in public, the fact that the Prime Minister and Treasurer and other relevant ministers are talking about the benefits, the costs the different proposals in public – I think that is generating public confidence in the fact that all the options are genuinely being considered. The old way the way Labor did it with a few experts in a room and the Henry Tax Review which was dumped on a Sunday before the budget and then cherry picked, that does not generate public support.

GILBERT

But Mr Turnbull says he wants to have a debate, communicate intelligently with the electorate, and then pulls out a sledgehammer and has a go at Labor yesterday and on Friday, channelling Abbott.

RYAN

Just because Bill Shorten throws out a bumper sticker doesn’t actually make it true. It doesn’t mean we can’t point out the flaws of what the opposition is doing, lets point out here there’s Labor members in Parliament that have negatively geared properties that are voting to get rid of them for everyone else without fully considering the impact on new house prices, existing house prices for the building market, so the debate doesn’t mean that you can shy away from genuine criticism when it’s warranted.   

GILBERT

Just because it’s the most exciting time to be an Australian doesn’t mean you can’t put the boot in if you think someone’s got it wrong which is clearly what Mr Turnbull believes of your policy.

THISTLETHWAITE

Kieran the Prime Minister and the Government are making this up as they go, they don’t have a plan, that’s clearly evident now, the Government does not have a plan for tax reform. Yesterday Malcolm Turnbull ruled out changes to capital gains tax, now it’s been unveiled this morning that the Government is actively considering looking at the 50 per cent discount on capital gains tax and reducing that and they’re even looking at extending it to superannuation. At least Labor has said quite clearly in our policy that we won’t extend it to superannuation so people can have security moving into the future, Labor has done its due diligence on these policies for the last two years. We’ve been actively out there consulting, we’ve worked with experts in framing these policies, we’ve had them independently costed by the Parliamentary Budget Office, we now have a clear set of fully costed policies for tax reform in this country that will grow our economy and ensure that we’re creating jobs. Contrast that to the Government who don’t have a policy on this at all, Scott Morrison last week at the Press Club was a complete embarrassment, 46 minutes of nothing, he couldn’t even go on Ray Hadley’s program on Monday, his best friend to talk about it, because he knew he had nothing to say, they’re making it up as they go along.

GILBERT

Not his best friend anymore given Mr Hadley described Mr Morrison’s approach last week as gobbledegook…

RYAN

Sydney talk back radio is very colourful I understand, I’m from Melbourne.

GILBERT

But he’s obviously losing the narrative… has he gone into witness protection?

RYAN

This building is obsessed with there being a well-designed, well-crafted plan that’s somehow, some mastery of political strategy. Now,  that’s not the way that you generate public support for change and serious change anymore. We saw the failure of that approach with the Henry review, options were ruled out, a big report dumped on the Sunday before the budget cherry picked options were cherry picked out of it which the Government then announced without any real consultation, what this Government is doing is actually demonstrating when we claim we are considering all the options, when we look at the costs and proposals of everything from the GST, if this morning’s story is accurate, capital gains tax, we demonstrate to the public that we have thought about it, and we are taking them into our confidence by the way we do this and then we announce that tax package around budget time or just before the budget, the people and the public I think will have seen we have considered all the options…

GILBERT

The Prime Minister said yesterday in Parliament that capital gains tax is not part of our thinking then we see suggestions that it is when it comes to superannuation funds.

RYAN

It is a story and I can’t attribute any or verify that story not being my portfolio. While I was in the Senate I do understand that you know, a little passing of a phrase in a little question from the House of Representatives, I mean let’s look at the context in which it was asked and I understand the context was particularly around the discussion of the housing market and negative gearing.

THISTLETHWAITE

But Scott you’re a minister in this Government, the Prime Minister said yesterday he’s ruling out changes to capital gains tax, it’s reported this morning that you’re actively considering it, are you or aren’t you?

RYAN

Matt, I think it is fair to say my portfolio isn’t tax

THISTLETHWAITE

You are a minister, you are part of the executive, and surely you know what’s going on with tax reform.

RYAN

Matt, you pretend you know everything that is going on in the ALP inside every ALP policy I think quite frankly that’s a bit fictional

THISTLETHWAITE

Well the ministers consult with me about them and yes they get my feedback.

RYAN

The point that I’m making is that just because the Government has considered options and is thinking through the costs and consequences of all proposals doesn’t mean that either decisions haven’t been taken or that we’re looking at them.

ENDS