Topics: Stuart Robert, GST, tax reform, Tony Abbott, border control.
E&OE…
KIERAN GILBERT
This is AM Agenda, with me now we have the Assistant Cabinet Secretary Senator Scott Ryan and Labor frontbencher Matt Thistlethwaite. Gentlemen, good morning to you both, you heard what Mark Dreyfus has had to say you have seen what has gone on over the last 24 hours, is it time for Malcolm Turnbull to act decisively on Stuart Robert?
SCOTT RYAN
Firstly, the Prime Minister has put in place a process, he has asked for advice from the head of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet with respect to the statement on ministerial standards, it is entirely the appropriate thing to do. And I just transpose that to what Mark Dreyfus and all of his confected outrage of a few minutes ago, we don’t know all of the elements and all of the facts here that is why the Prime Minister has asked for advice, yet on issues where we do know all of the facts on issues where Mark Dreyfus has stood by and watched the CFMEU and all of the details of the Royal Commission have come out, Labor won’t act. So he says now, before the facts have been determined, that we have got to act, although I note he wouldn’t answer your question about what exactly should happen today. But then when it comes to things that we do know through proper things like royal commissions where due process have been followed, Mark Dreyfus and the Labor Party stand by the CFMEU. So, I look forward to Matt and Mark and all the Labor Party people say: well, I am not going to go near the CFMEU, and all of those union organisations that we know undertake rogues activities. This is hypocrisy of the highest order.
GILBERT
Do you accept though that it is a bad look that the shot – the photograph – there if he is there in a personal capacity, why is he there signing certificates, handshaking, and meeting with a Minister the next day?
RYAN
I am not going to prejudge. The appropriate thing that we do…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
Would you do that?
RYAN
The appropriate thing that we do is to undertake or wait for the advice from the head of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet with respect to the statement of ministerial guidelines. That is the proper process, not to prejudge, not to judge to conclusions and allow the process time which I am sure will be condensed because of these issues to determine the facts.
GILBERT
Matt Thistlethwaite that is all pretty reasonable isn’t it? And the suggestion that Malcolm Turnbull acted too slowly in the cases over summer, that is hard to sustain that attack given he examined the circumstances and then moved before the New Year.
THISTLETHWAITE
It is pretty clear Kieran that there is a breach of the Prime Minister’s guidelines here, which say that Ministers may not act as consultants for companies paid or unpaid. So, there is some questions that the Prime Minister and Stuart Robert need to answer, who paid for the trip, who sponsored the visa, did he use his official passport or his personal passport, was there a donation associated with this trip from this particular company, these are all questions that the Opposition has a right to ask in the Parliament of the Prime Minister about whether or not his ministerial guidelines are being upheld.
GILBERT
If you look at an example though, and you know from the time in Government as well, if you have a trade delegation you would have a Minister in a similar circumstance alongside companies representing Australia. How is this different?
THISTLETHWAITE
Why did he take leave, personal leave, and say that it was a private trip and say that it wasn’t related to his duties as a Minister but the company involved put out a press release saying that the Minister was there acting on behalf of the Australian defence organisation. He then went and met with a senior vice minister of the Chinese government the next day. There is confusion about whether or not the ministerial guidelines have been breached here, and Labor is right to ask those questions as an Opposition holding the Government to account in the Parliament. And what we saw yesterday in the Parliament, Kieran was the Government’s attempt to shut this down. They should fully answer those questions in the Parliament today, if we ask them again which no doubt we will, rather than try and shut this debate down.
GILBERT
Why isn’t Labor going to the point of saying he should be sacked though? Why are you holding back on that? Is this sort of a drip feed that you want to maintain the rage again tomorrow and then step up the attack even further if the Prime Minister doesn’t move him aside today.
THISTLETHWAITE
Because they’re the Prime Minister’s guidelines. They are his guidelines about his standards for his Ministers to keep and…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
It is your tactics though, to keep it in the limelight isn’t it?
THISTLETHWAITE
It is up to him to assess whether or not that breaches a (inaudible) and to answer questions about that in the Parliament. Yesterday we saw the Government try and shut it down, refuse to answer any of those questions and the Prime Minister sent it off to the Secretary of the Department to have a look at when he should have a look at it, make a decision and come clean with the Australian people.
GILBERT
You must concede that all of this is a pretty messy look for Stuart Robert and for the Government to have to manage in the second week back?
RYAN
Despite Labor’s sledging and confected outrage and use of terms like Matt just did like ‘it seems’ ‘it appears that’, let us wait until we get the advice. This is part pf taking Government seriously; it is not just about putting on a performance in the studio, or in the House of Representatives. The Prime Minister did the entirely appropriate thing, which is what the public expect, to seek advice on the facts and the application of the guidelines. That will come back to the Prime Minister, he has got a track record of taking advice seriously and I think that is what the Australian public expect. Not this flippant and confected outrage we see from Labor, along with the hypocrisy that Matt’s colleagues go to fundraisers for union slushfunds which aren’t even disclosed. We saw the Royal Commission, members of this Parliament; members of the Labor Party supporting unions who the Royal Commission outlined in great detail break the law. Yet, Mark Dreyfus, even though we know the facts there, tries to stop laws being passed in Parliament to address that. And now we have today’s confected outrage all the while the Prime Minister has said: I am going to seek advice from the official involved. This is the appropriate thing to do, which is what the people expect.
GILBERT
Let’s look at the tax debate right now, the front page of the Financial Review saying ‘ the PM scrambles for a tax policy’ is that is what is happening right now with the Government trying to scramble together enough savings to put out some sort of tax cut for the private and company tax?
RYAN
Again, one of the challenges of politics over the last few years has been that groups of people get in rooms come up with what they think is perfect for the country and drop big volumes on the population, like Labor did with the Henry tax review. We said last year and the Prime Minister made clear that there would be a free flowing and frank debate about tax policy in this country as part of a broader economic debate. I welcome the fact that some of my colleagues have different opinions and have expressed different opinions. Part of that process of generating consent for support for reform in the public, sometimes difficult change, is the public seeing that we are not robots and that we are thinking about it. This process we are going through demonstrates that. So, the Prime Minister made clear on Sunday that he had an open mind on changes to the GST but he has not yet been convinced, there has been three or four months of this debate taking place there is another three or four months until the Budget…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
Is this because we are coming out of a period of where people probably haven’t had a great deal of economic confidence and to be frank haven’t had a lot of confidence in the political system either. So, the Prime Minister wants to hasten slightly…
(Interrupted)
RYAN
Part of it is actually generating public support for change, I have long been of the belief that what the public want is for politicians to debate ideas rather than parrot talking points. That is why I welcome colleagues in my own Party who might have different views on the tax mix, or different views with how…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
In terms of the Prime Minister’s approach, is he being cautious because of this instability and the period of the last seven or so years where our political class haven’t really been well thought of in the electorate?
RYAN
What he is doing is allowing a full, frank, and fair tax debate to go on, and allowing different opinions to be expressed, rather than having a focus on Party discipline and insuring that everyone says the same thing. That is not the path to public support.
GILBERT
Bill Shorten will be disappointed that the Prime Minister won’t be going ahead with the GST that was his one ticket wasn’t it?
THISTLETHWAITE
Not at all, we are opposed to a GST because it is a regressive tax and it unfairly impacts on low to middle income earners.
GILBERT
Politically Bill Shorten has lost a weapon there.
THISTLETHWAITE
I am convinced Kieran that the instability, the division and chaos in this Government is now impacting their ability to make decisions on policy. They have been talking about tax reform since the moment they were elected in 2013, but they are yet to release and get through the Parliament one tax reform policy. It says everything about this Government, they have been focused on themselves, you saw the disastrous couple of Budgets from the Abbott government that they couldn’t get through, they then switched leader and Malcolm Turnbull promised to deliver tax reform and talk to the Australian public about tax reform, they put the GST on the agenda. It was Scott Morrison and Malcolm Turnbull who put this issue on the agenda and now they are backing away from it and the Fin Review headline is right, they are scrambling now for a policy, it is the division and the self-centred inward looking focus of the Liberal Party that is now…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
You don’t think it is not a healthy debate, a healthy discussion? Most of them seem quite relaxed given where the polls are right now.
THISTLETHWAITE
They haven’t been able to make a decision for two years. They have floated ideas about different policy reforms but they haven’t got one of them through the Parliament and haven’t made…
(Interrupted)
RYAN
Yes we have, multinational tax reform, small business tax concessions.
THISTLETHWAITE
They invested so much in this GST debate; they got Mike Baird to front up and lead the charge on reform on the GST. Scott Morrison backed him in in the speeches he has made, in the answers he has had in the Parliament, he has been talking about GST reform an then the division starts within the Liberal Party backbench on the issue and then they back off.
GILBERT
On this division issue, Tony Abbott is writing in the…well he is quoted by Catherine McGregor in the telegraph today. She started as a columnist; the Australian of the Year finalist, Tony Abbott is saying that the Party’s base is on “heightened alert for any drift to the left on two flashpoint issues of boats and terrorism”. This is Mr Abbott today quoted by Catherine McGregor in the Telegraph. Is this true that the Party’s base or the right the conservative right is on high alert for a drift?
RYAN
I wouldn’t describe that all, there have been debates in the parliamentary Party where people like myself were concerned about issue like 18C being dropped or even the increase income tax rates that came in in the first Budget. This is part of the to-and-fro, this is why I said to you earlier Kieran…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
Are you saying the former Prime Minister doesn’t have that much credibility when it comes to the conservative right because of those two issues?
RYAN
No, no. On issues of national security and particularly stopping the boats, I think Tony Abbott will be recorded as the Prime Minister that stopped a potential national crisis with the breakdown on immigration controls, and I think every Australian should give him credit for that. My point being, that I think it is erroneous to consider the Party in the simplistic way that people look at the Labor Party with groups of factions that are based in the Labor Party purely on self-interest. There is no concern about where the Coalition policy on border security, and I think both the Prime Minister and Peter Dutton…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
There is obviously some concern? Mr Abbott has got some concerns.
RYAN
I haven’t heard it from my colleagues…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
I just read it to you, this is in the Telegraph today.
RYAN
To be fair I spend time in the Party Room as well, and over the last few days we have actually seen Peter Dutton and Malcolm Turnbull be attacked for actually holding the Coalition’s policies that have been consistent through Howard, Abbott, and Turnbull on making sure illegal boats have stopped.
GILBERT
That is true.
THISTLETHWAITE
Tony Abbott is on a long term destabilising mission; that is clear. You have had this drop to the papers today; you had the one a couple of weeks ago to the Daily Telegraph about the meeting with Obama. There is no doubt that there is a campaign to destabilise and this particular Government going on within the Liberal Party. That is affecting policy development, and the contrast is that Labor has had a clear set of policies, particularly on tax reform for at least the last year. We began this process as soon as we were elected, looking at new policies and getting them out there early. You have got to say that in terms of the electoral cycle that Bill Shorten has been out there with more policies than any other leader in modern history. Clearly having an opportunity for people to have a good look at these in the lead up to the election. We have announced a number of tax reform policies that will raise an additional 70 billion dollars’ worth of revenue over the course of the next decade…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
A drop in the ocean though, isn’t it?
THISTLETHWAITE
And that is independent costed by the Parliamentary Budget Office.
(Interrupted)
There is a clear alternative there Kieran, the chaos and dysfunction and the lack of policy direction from the Government and a clear set of policies that have been out there for months for people to have a look at.
GILBERT
Just finally, we are almost out of time, you might be critical and I know you will be of what they have put forward thus far but at least they have gone further than a lot of oppositions have in the past.
RYAN
I remember I was around when we put our costed policies in 1993 which was a thousand pages of Fightback, I was around in 1996 when we put out costed policies with John Howard and Peter Costello. The problem is the credibility that Labor brings to this, no one believes their policies. No one believes that you can fund ten years of education spending off a declining tax base, Labor try to create the myth that the Marlborough man is going to ride in on tobacco excise and balance the Budget, and throwing numbers like 70 billion – that is over ten years that is a drop in the ocean – it is not going to make a difference in the deficit and it is not going to come close to funding the education spending that Labor claims it will fund. Labor always underestimates the deficits it leaves and tries to confect these costed policies that never turn out in reality.
GILBERT
Alright, we are out of time. Assistant Cabinet Secretary Scott Ryan and Labor frontbencher Matt Thistlethwaite, gentlemen thank you for that we will talk to you soon.
(ENDS)