E&OE…
KIERAN GILBERT
Welcome back to the program, with me now Shadow Parliamentary Secretary for Foreign Affairs, Matt Thistlethwaite, and Assistant Cabinet Secretary, Senator Scott Ryan; thank you both for your time. On the developments out of the G20 and in the wake of the Paris atrocity, Senator Ryan first to you, Barack Obama basically cautioning against big numbers of ground troops and boots on the ground in the fight against the so-called Islamic State. At the same time we had Tony Abbott in The Australian today saying that Australia, and likeminded countries, should consider doing that. And you heard Julie Bishop in that interview there repudiate Mr Abbott for that suggestion.
SCOTT RYAN
I probably wouldn’t describe it the way you just did, Kieran. I think the tragedy and atrocity in Paris has shaken the country and shaken people all around the world. And what it has brought forward is the fact that, as we saw at the G20 and we’ll undoubtedly see at APEC, discussions between world leaders including Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull about how we move forward and address this. Now, some people are of the view that we need to address it militarily; some people are of the view that we need to be more reserved about that. I think that all the statements have been made in good faith, all the statements have been made with the very best consideration because everyone shares the same objective: that this particular malevolent force of ISIS, this force of hate, needs to be defeated and we need to protect our own domestic security. Now, Australia has been at the forefront of that and even though we had two tragic events last year, our community handled that, in my view, in an incredibly responsible fashion despite the fact that it did scare a lot of people.
GILBERT
Matt Thistlethwaite, your reflections this morning given where the discussion is at? The response from the French was twenty bombs targeting IS targets yesterday, now the discussion about whether ground troops and special forces or other military should be deployed to take on IS in Syria and Iraq.
MATT THISTLETHWAITE
What’s important, Kieran, is that there is a legal basis for any intervention. At the moment that’s sound under international law, because there’s been an invitation from the Iraqi government. We need to be satisfied that there’s a legal basis for any further incursions. That was the problem in 2003: there wasn’t a sound legal basis under international law for the initial invasion of Iraq that’s led to a lot of the problems we still have in that region. So there needs to be a sound legal basis, and secondly I don’t think that Australia can act unilaterally in this case. And at the moment, there’s no request from the US government for Australia to put boots on the grounds; our involvement at the moment is confined to air strikes and a training mission, and I don’t think it’s wise to be speculating on something without a sound international basis and without that invitation from the US.
GILBERT
So, you’re referring to Tony Abbott’s intervention there specifically?
THISTLETHWAITE
Well, I think we need to be calm, I think we need to be measured and we need importantly to be acting as part of a coalition. And at the moment there’s important talks going on in the G20 regarding Russia and their involvement in the conflict, there are further talks that will occur between Australia and the US in ASEAN and APEC, and I think that it’s important that we’re measured, we’re responsible and we’re acting as part of a coalition.
GILBERT
You wouldn’t argue with a lot of that would you, Senator Ryan?
RYAN
Well I think it’s disappointing there that Matt tries to make a political point about events more than a decade ago. The most important thing here is actually protecting Australian’s security; that’s the single most important thing here. And this Government has been at the forefront of it, and with Labor Party support in updating our legislative framework to give our security agencies the laws that they need, we’ve increased resources to that. As I said earlier, despite the tragedies of Sydney and Melbourne last year, our community handled tragic events particularly well. What the former Prime Minister was doing was actually entirely responsible; it was making the case for a particular approach to dealing with this. And there will be some differences as you highlighted in your introduction there with President Obama having a slightly different emphasis. But let’s not pretend or ignore what happened in Paris which was, to quote the French president, an act of war. It was nothing less than that, and so that means that we’re going to have to consider, and I think everyone in the world is thinking about this: measures, tactics and strategies that don’t necessarily apply to the world twenty or thirty years ago…
(Interrupted)
GILBERT
What do you say to the argument that we should disengage from the Middle East all together? This is something that Tom Switzer from the US Studies Centre has written about in the SMH today, basically saying that attacks like this are a result of the military interventions in the Middle East and that we should disengage all together?
RYAN
Look I know Tom, and as I said earlier, most people are partaking in this debate with good faith and due consideration. I disagree with that assessment, I think that the people who attacked people at a rock concert in Paris, people at a restaurant, they weren’t doing it because of what was happening in Syria, they were doing it because they simply hate. And as the statement from ISIS made clear, and their description of what Paris was, they hate the lifestyle that we lead. They hate our liberal values. They hate our commitment to diversity, to equality, to gender equality et cetera. So I don’t think disengaging from the region will at all, in any way, provide additional protection. I think that we do need to ensure that we address the source of the threats, and that’s what this government has been doing and that’s what Prime Minister Turnbull has been talking to foreign leaders about.
GILBERT
Matt Thistlethwaite, your reflections on that argument? That rather than engage more we should disengage from the military conflict in that part of the world?
THISTLETHWAITE
Well to date, Kieran, Australia’s commitment has had bipartisan support. So we’re at one with the government on our approach to this, and that’s because to date the involvement has been based upon an invitation principally from the Iraqi government, and has a sound basis under international law under the doctrine to protect. So, we’re at one with the government with our resolve to fight terrorism, we’re at one with the government in our resolve to see an end to this terrible conflict in the Middle East. And I think that the involvement of Australia at the moment is a sensible one, and if that is to change then the government will need to obviously provide a briefing to the opposition on the circumstances under which they’d seek to change that.
GILBERT
Gentlemen we’re out of time, appreciate it this morning. Thank you Senator Scott Ryan and Labor frontbencher Matt Thistlethwaite.
(ENDS)