Topics: Prime Minister Tony Abbott, Senate crossbench negotiations, higher education reforms.
E&OE…
KIERAN GILBERT
This is AM Agenda. With me now we have Liberal frontbencher, Senator Scott Ryan and Labor frontbencher Matt Thistlethwaite. Gentlemen, good morning to you. Senator Ryan, yesterday that news conference from the Prime Minister – the longest one he’s held – what was the aim of that? Do you think he achieved – essentially, it looked like he was trying to reboot the conversation a bit.
SCOTT RYAN
Well I think the Prime Minister went out and wanted to have a long session of questions and answers. Obviously, some people had some questions to put to him. He admitted that last week wasn’t the tidiest week for the Government, but he also wanted to point out that in the five months that we’ve had the capacity to get legislation through the Parliament – and that’s important to remember – it’s only since July 1 that Labor and the Greens have been in a blocking position. The Government has actually achieved quite a lot. We have fulfilled our core election promises of stopping the boats, repealing the carbon tax and repealing the mining tax. And we’re on the way to delivering on our commitment to bring the Budget back into a sustainable position…
GILBERT
[Interrupts] But you said last week was a bit messy, but if you look at what the Prime Minister had said, referring to barnacles on the Coalition ship and that sort of thing. The former Treasurer, his long-term colleague, Peter Costello this morning writes in the Daily Telegraph and the Herald Sun: ‘Getting rid of the barnacles has been as choppy as the barnacles themselves’. So recognising it is one thing, but getting rid of them is an entirely different question altogether and it appears, according to many people, that the Prime Minister hasn’t gone anywhere near doing that.RYAN
Well, we were left with a very significant mess we’ve had to clean up. I mean, the most challenging thing about this mess isn’t just the scale of it but it’s also the approach taken by Labor and the Greens, where they’ve decided that if they can’t be in government they’re going to try and burn the house down for everyone else. The point the Prime Minister made yesterday was that we will stick by the commitments we announced in the Budget until we effectively realise they’re not going to get through and then we’ll come up with alternative policy proposals. But the objective of bringing the Budget back into a sustainable position is a core commitment of this Government.
GILBERT
Matt Thistlethwaite, your reaction to this? Because obviously we’re a long way out from the next election but the Prime Minister seemed to adopt the approach of former Prime Ministers Gillard and Howard when they were in a tough spot: come out and answer every question – all comers. That’s a good thing to do, isn’t it, when you’re in a difficult spot?
MATT THISTLETHWAITE
I thought the Prime Minister’s performance yesterday was pathetic, really. The Prime Minister has been caught out lying and all Australians know that. He was the one who said before the election, the night before, ‘no cuts to health or education, no changes to the pension, no cuts to the ABC or SBS’. He did this because he was pulled up by his own backbench last week – it was Craig Laundy that accosted the Prime Minister in the caucus meeting – the Liberal Party caucus meeting – and said ‘stop lying. Stop the verbal gymnastics and come out and admit that you told a lie’. It was only in the wake of that that he changed his tune and came out and admitted that he told a lie.
It wasn’t out of a desire to come clean with the Australian public. It wasn’t out of a desire to do the right thing by the Australian public. It was because he was accosted by one of his own backbenchers in a Liberal Party caucus meeting, and that is pathetic in my view. And that’s a symbol of why this Government’s in the position that it’s in at the moment.
GILBERT
It’s not just Labor that’s got problems with the way the Government is managing things at the moment. David Leyonhjelm – I’m going to be speaking to the Liberal Democratic Senator after nine o’clock – but this morning on the doors he spoke to members of the Press Gallery and said that the Government’s communication with the crossbench, including himself, has been terrible. What’s going wrong here?
RYAN
Well, ask David about that. I’ve known David and I’ve known Bob – I’ve served with Nick since we started in the Senate – so I have spoken to them. You’ll have to ask them about their communications with members of the Government about specific policies.
But I just wanted to turn to the hyperbole that Matt used there. The point is when it comes to important things like health and education, what the government said before the election – what the Labor Party said was ‘we’ll give you a five per cent pay rise. We’ll actually increase the rate of spending’. And what the Government said is, like any business, ‘when we come to office and we find a mess, we’ve reduced the rate of growth in health and education spending’. They’re still going up.
It’s like your boss saying to you: ‘I can’t afford a five per cent pay rise, but I’ll give you a three per cent pay rise’. Now, Matt Thistlethwaite wants to turn that into some sort of debacle.
GILBERT
[Interrupts] [Inaudible]…Let’s put that to Matt. That’s true, isn’t it? That is true, and both sides have to take accountability for this, the unsustainable trajectory of the spend, which Chris Richardson put it yesterday from Deloitte Access Economics that this has got to be dealt with. At some stage, this has got to be managed and, I guess, at some stage Labor has got to understand that.THISTLETHWAITE
But the Government needs to take responsibility for that, Kieran, because they’re the ones that doubled the deficit when they came to Government – added $68 billion worth of expenditure over the forward estimates to the Government’s budget position.
They’re the ones that are persisting with an unsustainable Paid Parental Leave and Labor, when we were in government, we had a plan for some sound fiscal measures that included higher rates of taxation on high-end superannuation. It’s this Government that’s got rid of close to $7 billion worth of revenue in getting rid of the carbon price, and getting rid of [inaudible]…
GILBERT
[Interrupts] Does Labor accept that there has to be more done? More reform, more reining in of the spending which blew out when the mining boom was flying?THISTLETHWAITE
We accept that there has to be reform, that’s why we’re suggesting that the Government get rid of an unsustainable Paid Parental Leave scheme…
RYAN
[Interrupts] So why are you blocking us implementing the spending measures and the spending cuts that you yourself promised before the election? Measures that Labor said they would do, and that you put into the Budget. We are trying to implement and you are stopping us from fulfilling your promises.THISTLETHWAITE
Because this Government has the wrong priorities, Scott. We don’t agree with you…
RYAN
[Interrupts] So you don’t care about what’s [inaudible]…THISTLETHWAITE
[Interrupts] We don’t agree with you slugging low-paid income earners every time they go to the doctor. We don’t agree with you…RYAN
[Interrupts] We’re not talking about Budget measures. We’re talking about the ones that you promised. The billions of dollars that you promised.THISTLETHWAITE
We don’t agree with you trying to triple the cost of university degrees. We don’t agree with you slugging pensioners and slugging the Defence Force to pay for some reckless promises that you made…
RYAN
[Interrupts] Put all of those to one side.THISTLETHWAITE
…When coming into Government. Your priorities are wrong.
RYAN
[Inaudible] The ones that you promised to do, which we agreed with, you are now stopping us from implementing.THISTLETHWAITE
We believe that we have the right set of priorities when it comes to representing the Australian people…
RYAN
[Interrupts] But you don’t want to balance the Budget. It’s all words…THISTLETHWAITE
No.
RYAN
It’s a bumper sticker to you. It’s not an outcome.
THISTLETHWAITE
No, it’s not that at all. You’ve got the wrong priorities. You’re the ones that are trying to implement a Medicare co-payment. You’re the ones that are trying to triple the cost of university degrees – that are trying to slug pensioners – and the Australian people don’t agree with you, and Victoria is a classic example of that.
GILBERT
[Interrupts] All right, I want to move on. One of the areas of disagreement that, again, is the focus this week, but it looks like the Government’s not going to get the numbers to get the higher education changes through, or is there some movement with the Palmer United Party? Is there some progress there?RYAN
I’m not going to negotiate on television, Kieran. But the Government is continuing its discussion with all of the crossbenchers and, as we saw yesterday with the Prime Minister and Education Minister making an announcement, we’ve indicated some compromises have already been accepted. We hope…
GILBERT
[Interrupts] Well Lambie has said ‘no’, Xenophon has said ‘no, not this year’. You want to get it done this week, so that leaves PUP – Lazarus and Dio Wang – they must be showing at least some willingness to talk if you’re still hopeful?RYAN
Talking is continuing to all the crossbenchers, and as we saw yesterday, the Government has already indicated some compromises have been accepted – amendments moved by Senator Madigan and Senator Day about the interest rates on HECS loans. And yes, we are keen to get these higher education reforms through because there is no alternative. There’s no alternative offered by Labor, there’s no alternative offered by the Greens. Our universities will not have [inaudible]…
GILBERT
[Interrupts] Will you try again next year if you don’t?RYAN
Well, let’s see what happens this week. Let’s see what happens, we’ve got three sitting days left.
GILBERT
How would you characterise it? Are you optimistic of getting a deal done?
RYAN
I’m always an optimist, Kieran.
GILBERT
So you think it’s a chance?
RYAN
I think it’s a chance.
GILBERT
Okay, that’s interesting because Palmer United has been adamant that they won’t be going to support it, but you never know with Clive, do you?
THISTLETHWAITE
No, you don’t. The issue here, Kieran, is that it’s the upfront cost of the degree, and in my area…
RYAN
[Interrupts] It’s zero upfront.THISTLETHWAITE
Well, no, in my area – the kids in my area aspire to go to the University of New South Wales. It’s one of Australia’s leading universities, it’s in our community. That’s got courses that are in high demand – medicine, engineering, commerce, science – they’re all in very high demand.
The Australian Medical Association has estimated that the cost of a medical degree at a university like UNSW will triple – will go to about $250,000. Now for kids of working class parents, that’s prohibitive. That just puts it out of the range of those kids ever aspiring to do that degree. So you can talk about deals on the interest payment on…
RYAN
[Interrupts] He’s making numbers up.THISTLETHWAITE
The issue is the upfront cost and you’re putting it out of reach in many [inaudible]…
GILBERT
[Interrupts] Let’s hear your response to that.RYAN
Your numbers on university fees are as rubbery as your numbers on the Budget…
THISTLETHWAITE
[Interrupts] They’re not mine, Scott. They’re the Australian Medical Association’s.RYAN
The universities have debunked this comprehensively. The universities have debunked this comprehensively. If you look at the University of Western Australia – a very similar university, one of the Group of Eight – that’s already capped fees, if these proposals go through, at $30,000. So, we’re looking at increases in some cases, decreases in others – the most important point remains: not a single dollar upfront. No one has to pick a dollar out of their pocket to go to university. Every single cent of it is deferred.
GILBERT
All right, let’s get back to that. But I want to ask you specifically on this broader issue of the quality of higher education, because all the vice-chancellors of the eight big universities are supportive of these Pyne reforms. Because, I guess, the fundamental problem here is that the number of students going into the unis has been deregulated. Essentially, the numbers have been opened up, but the prices haven’t. So, therefore, when you have more people in [and] prices capped, the quality is diminished.
THISTLETHWAITE
Well of course the vice-chancellors are supportive because they see it as a revenue-raising measure [inaudible]…
GILBERT
[Interrupts] But the point is how are we going to have world-class universities if they haven’t got the resources? Surely there’s got to be some relaxation of their revenue stream if their demands are greater – more students in?THISTLETHWAITE
By government investment in quality education [inaudible]…
RYAN
[Interrupts] You cut funding in your last budget.THISTLETHWAITE
By government investment in quality…
RYAN
[Interrupts] You cut university funding in your last budget.THISTLETHWAITE
Scott, universities in Australia have had more funding than they’ve ever had in their lives as a result of the last Labor Government…
RYAN
[Interrupts] You cut funding in your last budget.THISTLETHWAITE
And the University of New South Wales is a classic example of that. What we don’t want, Kieran, is a two-tier education system like America where you’ve got some very high quality universities where courses are in high demand and the universities can charge what they want, but rural and regional universities are struggling where courses aren’t in high demand, and they can’t attract students, they can’t attract good academics, they can’t attract research dollars. That’s the system this mob want to introduce…
GILBERT
[Interrupts] Do you concede the point that if – you’re saying there’s no upfront dollar – but do you concede that if someone comes from a less well-off background and they’re starting from scratch, or even behind in many respects. But having a massive loan would be a deterrent to going to university, given that they’ve also got to think about getting a house one day, and setting up a family.RYAN
Sure, well we’ve got facts on this. Now, I’ll give credit to the Labor Party, but a long ago Labor Party here. The HECS scheme was invented in Australia. It has changed on multiple occasions – the fees have already gone up substantially by more than double since it was originally conceived. There is no data whatsoever to show that income contingent government guaranteed loans that are now only indexed at CPI and will be under the Government’s plans have any effect on deterring people accessing [inaudible]…
GILBERT
[Interrupts] At the current rates. What happens if they blow out to $100,000?RYAN
We’ve seen dramatic increases in rates – they started off at less than $1800 a year, which was about six or seven thousand dollars for a degree. They’re now substantially more, for example, for a law degree at UNSW. There has been no impact on reducing access for people from non-tertiary educated backgrounds. That expands access.
THISTLETHWAITE
Scott, you’re not living in the real world, mate. If you’re an income earner on $60,000 a year, you can’t go to your bank and say ‘let me borrow $4 million so I can buy a new house and I’ll pay it off into the future’.
RYAN
[Interrupts] But that doesn’t happen. You know that doesn’t happen.THISTLETHWAITE
You’re not living in the real world.
GILBERT
We’ve got to go, gents. Unfortunately we’re out of time. Senator Ryan, Matt Thistlethwaite, have a good day.
RYAN
Thanks Kieran.
(Ends)