Topics: Cory Bernardi, polling about migration, same-sex marriage
E&OE
KIEREN GILBERT:
With me now is Government front-bencher and Special Minister of State Scott Ryan and also Labor’s Matt Thistlethwaite, gentlemen, good morning to you.
A lot of happening, Senator Ryan first to you. Your colleague, you’ve known him for a long time, really not much of a surprise, there’s been a lot of talk about it, but do you feel like he has mislead your party and the voters?
SENATOR SCOTT RYAN:
Those are questions for Cory to answer. I have known Cory a long time, I’m always disappointed if someone leaves the Liberal Party. I think it is the vehicle for aspiration in Australia, for good government, and I always want it to be bigger. But political parties inevitably involve compromise. Not every single position that I would prefer is the priority of the Liberal Party and Cory’s obviously made the decision he doesn’t want to make some of those compromises.
GILBERT:
Yes and so do you feel he should resign, as Christopher Pyne said this morning, that’s the honourable course, as he put it?
SENATOR RYAN:
I’m not going to make judgements. Christopher and Cory have a history, I’m not going to make judgements on my colleagues’ tweets.
GILBERT:
How do you respond now as a political party? You’ve lost quite a powerful communicator in Cory Bernardi. This is going to be another challenge to the vote of the Coalition from the right.
SENATOR RYAN:
Well look, without going into commentary-mode, that’s for you to talk about over the course of the day, Cory’s made a decision that he doesn’t want to make the compromises that are involved in being part of a major political party that can deliver government to Australians. That’s the big difference between being in the Coalition and being in another party, that they can’t deliver government. If you want to make comment on legislation, if you want to influence amendments, if you want to do what Don Chipp did, then being in a third-party may be the preferred way. But that’s not the preference of myself …
GILBERT:
But really, what compromise? I know this is a Dorothy Dixer to an extent and I should be asking Senator Bernardi this and I will when I get the chance to, I just want to know what compromise has needed to be made from the conservative elements of the party since the election? It’s been a lot of bluster, but what has the Prime Minister and the Government done to anger them? In terms of 18C? Has he expressed some movement on that? In terms of climate change?
SENATOR RYAN:
I think you’re quite right to point out that there has been movement on 18C, whereas there wasn’t previously, and I think Cory’s made it clear that this has been a longer journey for him. It is appropriate you ask Cory those questions. The reason I make the point about compromise – and I’m assuming Matt can’t say every single position of the Labor Party is the one he adopted at the start of the debate, as opposed to the caucus decision. Political parties involves compromise. It involves compromise to get legislation through the Senate. It might not be something that we are always happy about, but if it is an advance on public policy, an advance on our agenda, it’s important to do. Cory’s obviously made it clear that there are compromises involved in the Coalition, you make the point that we are a broad church, and both sides of our party – there are various philosophies that underpin it – should be very happy with the progress of the Government, but Cory’s obviously made the decision that those compromises aren’t for him.
GILBERT:
Matt Thistlethwaite, well this is a gift for Labor because it just shows a bit more chaos within the Government.
MATT THISTLETHWAITE:
Well the great shame about this, Kieren, is that this is the first week of Parliament, the first day of Parliament. We’re not talking about the issues that matter to the Australian public, we should be talking about housing affordability, we should be talking about local jobs, we should be talking about protecting Medicare. The Government’s been in chaos about the Centrelink debacle. These are the issues we should be talking about. Instead the focus of the Parliament is going to be on the chaos and dysfunction and mess that is this Government, that’s the great shame about this. We’re not getting any leadership from the Government at all on the issues that matter to the Australia people.
GILBERT:
On an issue that seems to be resonating, at least in part, among Coalition voters, but at least half of those surveyed in the latest Newspoll support a Muslim ban, a Trump-style ban from Muslim nations in terms of immigration.
THISTLETHWAITE:
Well I’m heartened by the fact that the overwhelming majority of Labor voters don’t support that style ban. I think it would be bad for Australia to do something like that, it doesn’t reflect the Australian values, it certainly doesn’t reflect our Constitution, which outlines quite explicitly that we don’t propose religious tests for migration to this country or for lawmaking in this country. I think it’s really a job for the Prime Minister and the Government to now show some leadership on this issue and explain to the Australian people that it would be bad, not only for our economy, because if you restrict migration, you are restricting the growth of the economy, but also bad for Australian society and it’s something that the Labor Party wholeheartedly does not support.
GILBERT:
What are your thoughts on these numbers, given it’s at odds with the bipartisan view of a non-discriminatory migration policy that’s been in place in our country for decades now.
SENATOR RYAN:
Well firstly, I think the question that was asked was really in the eye of the person answering it, in the sense that there’s been so much debate about that particular ban and American policy implemented over the last couple of weeks that I think a lot of people could interpret it in different ways.
But America has a very different history of immigration than Australia. Particularly under the Coalition, Australia has always had a very selective immigration policy based on both supporting those who are in need through humanitarian intake, but also a highly selective policy based on our national interest and on risk assessments to ensure that it meets our national interest.
So I actually don’t think there is a great comparison in any way between Australian and American immigration policy. Ours has been the most successful in the world. It has been the most successful in the world under the Coalition, first under John Howard, and then under Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull, because we decided who came here, we decided what was in the national interest and we’ve actually increased our humanitarian intake at the same time.
GILBERT:
So you don’t think there is a groundswell for this sort of approach? It’s a reaction to the security questions we’ve seen, not just in this country, but worldwide?
SENATOR RYAN:
Well again, the question that was asked, the way I read that article, actually could have meant very different things to people answering it. I don’t think there is support in Australia for bans based on creed, race, or that approach.
GILBERT:
I want to ask you, just to wrap up our discussion this morning, about same-sex marriage. Barnaby Joyce, it is reported in The Australian today, saying that he said to the ministerial colleagues, ‘let’s focus on what matters to Australians, not fringe issues like same-sex marriage’.
SENATOR RYAN:
You wouldn’t expect me to comment on what might or might not happen in a meeting of the ministry Kieren.
GILBERT:
Why not?
SENATOR RYAN:
Because I don’t do that.
My point on same-sex marriage, having been responsible for the design of the plebiscite is, Bill Shorten said in 2013 a plebiscite was a good idea. The Greens introduced a bill at one point, saying we should have a plebiscite. We took a policy on a plebiscite, a black and white issue, to the election. We won the election. We attempted to legislate it. Out of sheer opportunism, the Labor Party and the Greens have decided to not allow us to fulfil our election promise.
GILBERT:
This remains an awkward issue for the Prime Minister though, doesn’t it? You don’t think so?
SENATOR RYAN:
No, no it doesn’t. We made a promise and we tried to implement it. I’m not going to let the Labor Party’s opportunism, and quite frankly, some of the most reprehensible arguments I’ve heard in a democracy – that we can’t trust the Australian people to responsibly debate a sensitive issue – the anti-democratic arguments that come from Labor and the Greens. They’re not going to define the promise we made.
GILBERT:
I just want to ask the Senator, that’s what you’re taking at the moment, absolutely , you can’t disagree with that. And that will remain your policy most likely for this term, but you need to formulate another policy because this is not going to get through. What’s plan B? How do you manage that in terms of the internal debate?
SENATOR RYAN:
It’s been six months since the election. I’m not talking about promises I’m going to make in two and a half years. I’m focused on delivering the promise we made six months ago.
GILBERT:
You’re going to keep pushing ahead with the plebiscite?
Well it should have been this Saturday. Matt Thistlethwaite, given Labor’s position previously, Shorten expressing that he was open to a plebiscite, the Greens arguing for one, it seems to me to be counter-productive if you want same-sex marriage legalised to be saying that the whole reason we didn’t undertake it is because we were worried about the campaign. We’re back again having this debate, we’re going to be back again having this debate in six months, in 12 months, 18 months. You could have had it legalised, and yet you’re almost creating the thing you wanted to avoid, on uncertainty and debate for individuals at adolescence and so on, who are gay.
THISTLETHWAITE:
We’re back at this debate because the likes of Trent Zimmerman, Tim Wilson and Dean Smith have put it back on the agenda, they want to discuss this in the Coalition’s party room. They’re not happy with the current approach of the Government of sticking by a plebiscite, particularly given the Parliament’s rejected it. Labor’s view is one that represents mainstream Australia, who want marriage equality and want the Government to get on with it and put a free vote through the Parliament.
I’m very comfortable with the position the Labor Party has taken because I consulted with gay and lesbian people in my community who said to me, ‘we don’t want a divisive plebiscite, we’re happy to wait’.
GILBERT:
Divisive, uncertainty continues.
THISTLETHWAITE:
They said they’re happy to wait and if Labor gets elected at the next election, it will be one of our priorities, but it’s another classic example of just how out of touch this Government are because the Australian public clearly want marriage equality, they want the Parliament to get on with it. And here you’ve got the likes of Barnaby Joyce ad others saying ‘nah, it’s just a fringe issue, don’t worry about it’. You’ve got this chaos and division that continues in the Liberal Party because they can’t make up their minds on this issue.
GILBERT:
There are a lot of mainstream Australians who would agree with this position they’ve taken.
THISTLETHWAITE:
Well the position of the people I’ve consulted in my community agree with the position of the Labor Party. I’ve got mates that live in Perth, in rural and regional …
GILBERT:
What about the religious members of Kingsford-Smith, your electorate?
THISTLETHWAITE:
Yeah and I’ve consulted with those people. Certainly not all of them agree with me, but I am confident, the overwhelming majority of people in the community of Kingsford-Smith support the position that Labor is taking.
SENATOR RYAN:
Let’s not forget that after the next election, Labor Party policy is to prohibit a free vote. So take everything he just said with a grain of salt. The free vote and apparently the right of conscience only lasts for the next two years for the Labor Party
GILBERT:
That’s true. That was an ALP conference decision. So how do you argue the Government should allow a free vote?
THISTLETHWAITE:
That was the decision that we took at a Labor Party conference after a debate and after consultation with the Australian people. Our view is that by that time, the Australian public will have moved to such a position that they just want to get on with this.
SENATOR RYAN:
But your conscience doesn’t matter.
THISTLETHWAITE:
And overwhelmingly people support this reform.
GILBERT:
What about your colleagues, like those individuals that Matt mentioned who have reignited this discussion? Do you support their right to do it?
SENATOR RYAN:
Well I’ve read an article, they haven’t done it with me. The difference between us and Labor is that every member in the Coalition Party Room has the ability to express their conscience with a vote in Parliament on every issue. If you’re in the ministry like me, you don’t, you have to step down to do so. I defend that right of conscience for my Coalition colleagues – it is a founding principle of the Liberal Party, it is one we will never change. I’m not going to be lectured about free votes by a Labor Party that has put a time limit upon them, and this is one of the only views on which you are allowed to have a free vote.
GILBERT:
Gentlemen, we’re out of time. Scott Ryan, Matt Thistlethwaite, good to see you both.
[ENDS]