Topics: Iraq, youth mental health & Australia Post
E&OE…
Chris Hammer
We’re joined now, in the studio, by Victorian Liberal Senator Scott Ryan and Labor’s Ed Husic, Member for Chifley in Sydney’s west. Can I start with Iraq. The Greens are suggesting that any repatriation of Iraqi asylum seekers be put on hold because of the turmoil in that country. Scott Ryan, to you first, does that make sense?
Scott Ryan
Well let’s put this in context. Repatriation is primarily a voluntary decision that people undertake themselves. It’s a decision that people can choose to return to their country of origin, and that’s a decision individuals can and should make with all the judgement that requires. Sarah Hanson-Young, is again here, just seeking attention because the Greens don’t have a consistent or coherent policy to protect our borders or immigration policy.
Hammer
But certainly you wouldn’t want to see forceful repatriation of those asylum seekers as aslum claims fail?
Ryan
Well at the moment, because of Labor and the Greens blocking TPVs, they’re slowing down assessment. They’re slowing down assessment of these claims. The decision to repatriate is primarily a personal one that an individual person makes.
Hammer
Ed Husic?
Ed Husic
Well I do always raise an eyebrow when I hear Libs complain about alliances with the Greens when they used them quite mercilessly through the last term of parliament on immigration reform. But putting that aside, and coming to the central part of your question, yeah absolutely Scott had said in many cases it’s a voluntary, but at the same time too there are international conventions that guide the way in which you send people back; that the conditions on the ground need to be safe do people aren’t in harm’s way. So obviously, I think, a range of assessments will be made in due course and do have to be made. But let’s see what’s put on the table, and in terms of those assessments as well, when you’re sending people back, given the size of Iraq as well, you wonder what people are being sent where. In some cases it may be appropriate to do so and in other cases it may be appropriate to defer that decision until you get a clearer picture about people’s safety on the ground if they were returned. So we just have to wait and see, and I think overall everyone is very conscious of the and very anxious to see what happens in Iraq and we all obviously, regardless of your political hue, are hoping that this will certainly settle and those extremist elements that are causing a lot of concern over there, that we see that the situation on the ground that the Government can take control of so this doesn’t escalate.
Hammer
Ok, moving on to the Budget, the issue that seems to be dominating everything in politics. Scott Ryan, there’s a new report out today indicating that one in five young people suffer from some type of serious mental illness. Isn’t that problem going to be exacerbated by the Government’s decision to withhold unemployment benefits from young people for six months?
Ryan
I haven’t read the full Mission Australia report. But as I understand, the newspaper reports about it, it’s that one in five people are suffering a trait of mental illness. I wouldn’t necessarily describe it as serious mental illness, and that’s not intending to dismiss it, that’s actually understanding that we now have a better understanding of what constitutes mental illness. And one of the things that we do need to remember is that this test is often about people for a period of time each year, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is permanent. And one of the things we’ve done in this country as a nation is, over the last 10 to 15 years have a much better understanding of it and we’ve put a lot of resources into it. We’ve got more than one hundred Headspace centres, that are facilities that weren’t even available a decade ago, that started under the Howard Government.
Hammer
But don’t you risk making someone’s condition worse if someone has benefits withheld from them?
Ryan
No. I can tell you the link between employment and the risk of suffering depression is something that a lot of people have had experience of. Those plans are actually about providing the right incentives for people to go into work or training. It is actually a much greater risk for people’s mental health to actually be long term welfare-dependant and not have the economic enfranchisement that an employment opportunity delivers. That’s what that package is about. It’s about getting people into those opportunities for employment and for training that lead to sustainable jobs.
Hammer
You say its incentive, but it’s more stick than carrot surely?
Ryan
Well that’s part of the incentive. The other part of the incentive is that we’re dramatically expanding access through the Higher Education Loan program, what used to be called HECS, for those who don’t go to university and more than 80,000 students are expected to benefit from public support through the loans scheme for the first time. So there is a dramatic increase in opportunities and the welfare changes are about providing the right incentives.
Hammer
Ed Husic?
Husic
Well I think, on that, you made reference to sick and carrot and I don’t think you can necessarily be that blunt if you’re young and you’ve got those challenges with respect to mental health and you’re trying to get into the workforce. It’s going to be a lot more of an intensive commitment that’s required to assist. There’s no point basically denying benefits and making people sit for six months if you know the person involved is going to need more support and more help because of the mental health issues are preventing them from moving smoothly into the workforce. This measure is more designed to save money. I would contend that it’s not part of a broader context of assisting people, and in terms of this Budget, if you’re young there’d one message. If you’re young under his budget. You know everything this Government has done affects in many cases, in most cases, the most affected are the young. Not only in terms of the Newstart changes, not only in terms of the university changes we discussed before that laden them up with debt, they are now potentially looking at the prospect of working until they’re 70. They’ll be looking at paying more in terms of fuel, when you look at the discretionary income young people have, and the fuel increases that impact and particularly for people in western Sydney I represent and in terms of the GP co-payments as well. I mean you look at it the burden falls, I say, harder on the young and that’s why I say if you’re young, you’re stung under this budget.
Ryan
No, we need to clarify a point here. I mean Ed’s litany of whinging there. More than 80,000 students are going to get additional access to associate degree and diploma courses through the HELP program they didn’t otherwise get. And if you’re in a training program, an accredited training program, you still get access to income support – you get access to Youth Allowance. So you’re not left out in the cold.
Hammer
So that may work, very well work, for the majority of young people. The overall numbers of unemployed young people may fall. But isn’t it a concern here that those people with mental illness, those who are least likely to take those opportunities, the research shows the more serious the mental illness the less likely the people are to put their hand up for assistance. Isn’t there a real that this will, after six months without benefits, they’re going to be so deep in depression that its going to take years of time out?
Ryan
Well, no. Let’s go back a couple of steps here. They’re not without benefits and income support if they’re in a training program, and that’s actually a lot better than not being in training or not in work. That’s the worst case scenario.
Husic
Well how do they get into training?
Ryan
Well this is the point; we have huge numbers of support services that weren’t even there a decade ago. 100 Headspace centres, we have the work of Patrick McGorry, the Black Dog Institute that put out today’s report with Mission Australia and other groups right around Australia. We have more support for youth mental health in place than we have in our history, and the income changes and the push into training or employment will ensure that people take advantage of opportunities which also lead to less isolation.
Hammer
Can you nominate any yardstick with which we can measure the success of this policy in two or three years’ time?
Ryan
The success of this policy is going to be measured by how our unemployment rate goes. It’s going to be measured by our young people having opportunities and taking advantage of those opportunities to work, particularly to get their first job. Because we know often the first job a young person takes not the last job. In fact it’s their foothold in the labour market. But that goes in line with the growing economy because in the end, without employment growth, we’re not going to be able to address the increase in our population and provide these job opportunities.
Hammer
Ed Husic? That sounds fair enough, doesn’t it? Unemployment falls, particularly youth unemployment falls, and then the Government can its policies have succeeded?
Husic
Well the RBA, that appears before the House of Reps Economics Committee of which I’m the Deputy Chair, has argued that it doesn’t see that unemployment will significantly until 2015-16 depending on whether growth picks up to such a strength that it will make inroads in unemployment. In terms of youth unemployment, youth unemployment always tends higher than the national unemployment rate. And in parts of the country they’ll be societal factors that hold people back from being able to get work. If they come from families with intergenerational unemployment, the dysfunction and in many cases the personal burdens that are borne by people who have seen domestic violence and drug abuse in their families, and where educational opportunities might not be the best. There are issues there that need to be tackled and no government can really afford to say that they’ll be done cheaply, they’ll require extensive effort. So if you want to see better education reform, or you want to see better support and other programs, governments will need to make an investment in those areas. Now, in youth unemployment in particular and making sure we address the skill shortages that exist in our economy, you know I’ve got deep concerns about not fully committing to Gonski or pulling apart Trade Training Centres, about state governments not committing to TAFEs. Today’s national TAFE Day and in my state of New South Wales, where courses and being shut and fees being increased, how does that help in terms of longer term employment prospects of young people when you’ve got state Liberal governments that don’t commit to vocational education or federal governments that are making it harder for young people to access support when they’re unemployed? There is a very difficult mix of issues there that will take us, you know, we are basically shoving action down the road by making short term savings and I that’s a really bad mix of factors.
Hammer
A final topic; Australia Post. Clearly its business model is breaking, not through any fault of this government or previous governments, because of the internet. Should we move to a position where letters aren’t delivered every day? They’re delivered every second day or something like that? Ed Husic, your opinion first.
Husic
I think you’re right to point out the destructive impact of technology. I actually noted the other day the stop work of cabbies in London. I don’t know if you saw how they reacted to Uber, which allows people to be able to get their own ride without using a taxi. And I thought for a moment, imagine if posties said they wouldn’t deliver mail because of the rise of email. I mean, you just can’t fight technology in that way, it’s a constant. So for us, in this country it’s about and I think you’re right to point out regardless of governments technology having its impacts, how we respond. And there have been suggestions that the community services obligation be looked at and I think that we obviously have to wait and see what the Government’s going to ultimately propose, but I think that it is something that you’d have to give consideration to. Do we, in a country with a number of residents, number of homes increasing, the amount of mail is decreasing. There’s still an expectation that we’ll deliver mail every day with less letters actually being available to be delivered. In time something’s gotta give, so I think we do need to think constructively and work with the Government on saying what do we do on community service obligations to make post viable? But also what do we do with the 4,000 postal outlets that provide a presence particularly in rural and regional Australia, and whether there’s scope to provide more work there? And also capability for more services to be provided to local communities? So I think there’s a lot of issues on the table and we do need to think constructively and work in a bipartisan fashion and it will be interesting to see what the Government puts on the table in response.
Hammer
Ok. You wouldn’t disagree with any of that, would you Senator Ryan?
Ryan
No I actually wouldn’t. I think that, apart from the fact that our children will wonder what these boxes are at the front of our fence, because as Ed mentioned the destructive influence of technology will make that a bit of acronysim. They’ll probably always be a place for some sort of delivery, whether it’s parcels or something in hard copy. But the CEO of Australia Post, Ahmed Fahour, has been out there talking about this and I think that is a responsible way to handle it. To introduce this concept to the community; that times are changing and technology is disrupting it. Just as you’re getting more convenience over email and with parcels, that means that means that the old business model of letters is breaking, and that’s actually the way to conduct this conversation. So the community can actually inform politicians and make a choice about how we want these services in the future and potentially take advantage, as Ed mentioned, of these institutions in our suburbs and towns and other opportunities for them to deliver services.
Hammer
Gentlemen, thanks for your time this morning.
Ryan
Thanks, Chris.
Husic
Thanks, Chris.
(Ends)