Topics: AFP raids, NBN, foreign aid spending.
E&OE…
JIM MIDDLETON:
Welcome back to PM Agenda. NBN, boats, houses, polls it is the shorthand election. But to elaborate I am pleased to welcome our panel joining us now is Labor frontbencher Katy Gallagher in Canberra, and with me here in the studio Turnbull Government Minister Scott Ryan. Scott Ryan to you first, these contradictions between what Andrew Colvin, AFP Commissioner, said yesterday and what Mitch Fifield is saying now. The AFP Commissioner says no one in the Government knew of the investigation, Mitch Fifield admits that he did. Not a good look is it?
SCOTT RYAN:
Let’s be clear about what has happened in the last 48 hours. In some of the most disgraceful attacks on the independence of the police we have seen, the Labor Party started off by implying that the police were somehow being used politically and what we are seeing is an attempt by the Labor Party to divert from those attacks.
MIDDLETON:
But there have been a number of missteps here haven’t there? Number one, we have these photographs that happened, we have the claim of Parliamentary Privilege, now we have got a contradiction between the AFP Commissioner and a senior Minister.
RYAN:
The claim of Parliamentary Privilege is an entirely appropriate one, a Member of Parliament can make in that circumstance, it was made and the documents were sealed as appropriate. But what Senator Fifield, Mitch, said in his statement today was that he was made aware of the referral. He did not pass that information on as is entirely appropriate. Now, when the Commissioner of the Federal Police last week referred to none being aware of the investigation, that is entirely consistent with (interrupted)
MIDDLETON:
It is a bit of (inaudible) isn’t it?
RYAN:
No, it is entirely consistent.
MIDDLETON:
Referral, investigation. They knew that they were looking at it. He did.
RYAN:
If you are aware of a referral you are then not aware of what the AFP do from that point onwards, and at no point has there been any allegation that Mitch Fifield knew that. His statement today, he used the word investigation in the common meaning of the term, he was not awre of what was going on. He was made aware of the referral which was appropriate. It was an independent referral by the NBN and it was independent activity by the Federal Police. And Labor are seeking to divert attention from the facts that the AFP took the action they did, independent of any consultation or consideration of Government. The Labor Party have been attacking the police for that. And they are also trying to divert attention from the fact that on the NBN their record is atrocious. There were 51, 000 people (Interrupted)
MIDDLETON:
These documents that you have been trying to keep out of the public eye, also suggests there are deficiencies in the way in which this Government is managing the NBN.
RYAN:
There were 51,000 people connected to the NBN when Labor lost office, 51,000. We are connecting that many each and every month now. The NBN is exceeding that have been set for it. And what Labor do not want to tell you is that their plan for the NBN means it being completed six to eight years later at $20 billion greater cost to the taxpayer. So Labor is just doing what they always do, playing politics with the national interested and seeking to divert attention by firstly slurring on the Federal Police and then doing so on the Prime Minister, and now trying to do so on Mitch Fifield. When the facts are clear Mitch was made aware of the referral, at no point was he made aware of any conduct after that, until the phone calls were made by the AFP to the Government and the Opposition before they had to raid Members of the Labor Party and their staff because of a referral independently by NBN.
MIDDLETON:
Katy Gallagher I will bring you in in a moment. But just one more question of you Scott Ryan, the Opposition Leader saying that it is implausible and inconceivable that the Prime Minister’s office did not know about what Mitch Fifield knew. He is right, isn’t he?
RYAN:
We have got a clear statement from Mitch Fifield who said upon being made aware of the referral from NBN Co he did not tell any other member of the Government. Now that is a clear statement of fact. Bill Shorten and Labor don’t have the guts to allege Mitch is lying, they just do this sledging tactic. Now, Bill Shorten, Katy, everyone should actually take a deep breath. Are they actually saying that Mitch is lying? Because he has made that very clear. Are they saying that the AFP are lying when they said that no one in the Government was aware of the investigation and what was going on between the referral and the actions of Thursday night? Because this is just an attempt to defer attention by throwing mud. And that is what Labor do when they are in trouble, they just throw mud and hope that some of it sticks.
MIDDLETON:
There is some truth isn’t there in that, Senator Gallagher? That you are throwing mud. Are you accusing Mitch Fifield of lying? It was a pretty clear statement.
KATY GALLAGHER:
Well, we are not throwing mud at all. In fact, I think you have to acknowledge that it was offices of a Labor Senator and a staffer that were raided by police. This didn’t start with the Labor Party, but the Party is certainly asking questions about what the Government knew, who knew, when they knew, how that information was passed on. I think the common person’s test, the person on the street, to suggest that Mitch Fifield as the responsible Minister for the NBN seeing leaks that were extremely damaging to the Prime Minister and his record as communications Minister was aware of an investigation and then did not tell anybody about it. I think that just beggars belief. There is some serious questions that the Government needs to answer, the Prime Minister was asked today about exactly what he knew and what his office knew, and he dodged those questions. And I think it is entirely legitimate for Labor to ask them.
MIDDLETON:
Indeed. But let me put it this way, you are a former ACT Chief Minister. If one of your Ministers became aware of a police investigation, I am pretty sure there were some in the time you held that office, would you expect, as Chief Minister, as a matter of course for your Ministers to inform you?
GALLAGHER:
I think it depends entirely on the circumstance. There would have been – I am trying to think of an example I could give – but it would depend on the circumstance. The issue here though, is that the information that is being leaked out of the NBN is highly damaging to the Prime Minister, and then we have his Minister aware of an investigation, aware that the NBN has referred it to the police and then suggesting that nobody knew about that. I think that stretches people’s imagination to believe that is actually the case. And look, the information that is coming out is clearly showing that Malcolm Turnbull’s record, in terms of what he promised and what is being delivered, are two entirely different things. And that is what the Government is worried about the damage that is being done to the Prime Minister and his competence as Communications Minister.
MIDDLETON:
But to go back to what you are saying about your record and time as ACT Chief Minister, you basically suggested that it depended on the circumstances whether you expected to be informed. Isn’t it plausible and realistic in those circumstances for Mitch Fifield to have kept that information away from the Prime Minister’s office as well?
GALLAGHER:
I think if that is the case, then we need a much clearer statement from the Minister – who has taken a day and a half to come clean and actually say he did know when we were all left to believe yesterday that nobody did know, today we find out that yes a Minister, a Cabinet Minister knew and now there is some follow up questions which I think Mitch Fifield has to respond to, but also the Prime Minister. When he was asked today about what he and his office knew he dodged those questions. This is a public interest matter here. NBN is a huge project funded by taxpayers and the leaks that are coming out are saying that it is more expensive, that it is delayed, and that it is not delivering the speeds that were promised. The information is in the public interest, and I guess the question I would also ask is what is the Government not wanting us to know? Because this has certainly been a very clear display about the fact that they are not going to tolerate leaks, even if that information is in the public interest.
MIDDLETON:
Scott?
RYAN:
Labor went to a great deal of trouble when they were in office to not actually answer a lot of the questions that we put out in the regular updates that come out from the NBN. They went to a great deal of trouble to hide the fact that it was only connecting 51,000 homes or premises before they lost office. But Katy there tired the classic Labor tactic. She doesn’t want to acknowledge that independent of anyone in Government, unless the Labor Party is changing tact on that and accusing the police of being political. They thought something was serious enough to undertake the activities they did on Thursday night. The NBN referred the matter to the police independently of Government, and at no point was the Government made aware of the details or undertaking of the investigation. Only of the matter being referred to the police. But Labor want to talk about other issues. This is another attempt by them to deflect from the events of Thursday night and their own failures on the NBN.
MIDDLETON:
Time to move on to another issue. A campaign announcement from the Labor Party today, restoring $224 million worth of foreign aid cut in the last Budget. Tim Costello, from World Vision, brother of Peter Costello standing next to him, careful to say he wasn’t advocating a vote from Labor but putting the (inaudible) on you to restore those cuts to improve Australia’s standing as a world citizen Fair enough, isn’t it?
RYAN:
These are very difficult decisions when the Government has inherited the Budget mess that it has from Labor. It was Bob Carr who actually said you can’t run an aid program on borrowings. He wrote that in his memoirs. And this for example, $220 million represents over the same period about half of what Labor cut out of foreign aid when they redirected it towards onshore processing because of their disaster on our borders with 50,000 people turning up unlawfully. That made Australia the third largest recipient of our own foreign aid program. This is just another stunt by Labor. It doesn’t represent anything other than Labor trying to make political hay during an election because their record on foreign aid with major cuts, and making Australia a recipient of its own program, it is a fact, it is not contested.
MIDDLETON:
Katy Gallagher, just time for a brief response, it is more spending and no way of being paid for.
GALLAGHER:
We will be very clear about how everything will be paid for. We have already announced, in the Budget Reply speech alone Bill Shorten was able to say there was $70 billion worth of spending that the Liberal Party would do that we wouldn’t do, and we will absolutely be clear through the election campaign about how things will be funded. But I think the issue on foreign aid is this about stopping some immediate cuts that would happen in the next financial year, it is about restoring some of our credibility around foreign aid, and it is also about priority. Yes we will prioritise this funding into foreign aid, and that puts us in contrast with the Liberal Party who are going to just pursue cuts to big business and I think people will measure us on our priorities. Ours are all around investing in people and in this case investing in some of the poorest people in our region and our world.
MIDDLETON:
Katy Gallagher in Canberra and Scott Ryan here in Melbourne, appreciate your time. It is an election campaign but it is also Saturday, so thank you both very much indeed.
(ENDS)