Topics: Employment figures, economic plan, US election result
E&OE …
RAF EPSTEIN:
Joining me in the Melbourne studio, Scott Ryan, he is a Liberal senator for Victoria, he is also one of Malcolm Turnbull’s ministers, he is the Special Minister of State, Scott welcome.
SENATOR SCOTT RYAN:
Good afternoon Raf.
EPSTEIN:
And Tim Watts is the Labor backbencher for the seat of Gellibrand in Melbourne’s glorious west. Tim welcome.
TIM WATTS:
Great to be with you Raf.
EPSTEIN:
Either of you volunteering to be [Cricket Australia] chairman of selectors?
SENATOR RYAN:
Well I couldn’t be any worse a selector than I was a cricket player.
EPSTEIN:
To be fair, Scott is a member of the only team in Australia struggling more than the Australian cricket team.
EPSTEIN:
You had to take the opportunity.
WATTS:
I’d view it as an escape plot.
EPSTEIN:
It was your one chance for a bit of bipartisanship and you threw it in the bin.
Look, 1300 222 774. I do want to start with work and I know the Government and Opposition have been saying things about 457 visas. But I’m going to quiz you both, I’m going to be cruel. Do either of you know – and this comes from the ABS stats in August – out of all of the jobs created in the last two years, how many of them, what proportion of them maybe, are full time private sector? Do either of you know?
RYAN:
I don’t know the number. I know it is low by historic standards.
EPSTEIN:
How low?
RYAN:
I couldn’t tell you the number off the top of my head.
EPSTEIN:
So there are 300,000 jobs in the last two years, one in twenty are full time, private sector jobs. One in twenty is very low I would suggest too.
RYAN:
I’ve spoken about this before Raf. I think one of the challenges has been, I think it was 2009, when health and social work and that category, I can’t remember the exact description, overtook retail in the ABS employment statistics. That is not solely public sector, but it is very heavily public sector, or subsidised indirectly by the public sector.
EPSTEIN: That’s not to say we don’t need those jobs either.
RYAN:
No, no, but I think that’s a sign. That, to me, will be viewed as a bit of a tipping point because retail had held the title as largest employment category since the late 1970s or early 1980s, since the first change in manufacturing, so there has been a change in our economy. And there has been …
EPSTEIN:
Doesn’t it say we don’t actually know how to create jobs? I’m not sure it is actually the political system’s fault, or not. We’re not quite sure how to create jobs anymore.
RYAN:
Well I don’t think – it won’t surprise you to hear this from me, Raf – governments don’t really create long-term, sustainable jobs. There has been strong growth in the public sector …
EPSTEIN:
But you were promising ‘jobs and growth’!
RYAN:
The environment that creates jobs, the private sector providing long-term, sustainable jobs with investment, that’s what we believe creates a sustainable employment market. There has been relatively strong growth in the public sector, some of that has been required new services, like the NDIS, some of it has been at the state level where there has been a bit of feather bedding.
EPSTEIN:
Tim Watts, what are we going to do? I’ll give people those numbers again. I spotted this in a tiny piece in an article by John Black in The Weekend Australian, former Labor senator in Queensland, now he just looked at this; it’s in the latest ABS release. 300,000 jobs created in the last two years, 42 per cent in the public sector, one in twenty, so there have only been 16,400 full-time jobs created in the private sector in the last two years. Can governments do anything about that?
WATTS:
Well Raf, it’s easy to say these things are beyond our control, but we’ve had a long history in Australia of setting up a government environment that can encourage the kind of workplaces that support the kind of country that we want to live in. So, in my electorate in Melbourne’s west, we have the old gates of the Sunshine Harvester factory. The Sunshine Harvester factory was the site of one of the great landmark industrial decisions in our history.
EPSTEIN:
It was a much simpler world then.
WATTS:
A much simpler world, but that was a decision that set a landmark for the kind of country that we were going to live in for many decades. [Inaudible] That was through direct intervention into how our labour markets work, saying jobs are different to commodities and people need to be treated differently.
EPSTEIN:
We all agree about laws and conditions and those sorts of things, don’t we? The differences between the two major parties is …
WATTS:
Well I don’t think we agree …
RYAN:
Tim’s talking about arbitration. That’s a completely separate matter. [Inaudible]
EPSTEIN:
Can I make a suggestion to you both? Everybody, from my highly paid friends who lose their jobs and can’t get a full time job, through to the people who are cleaning our offices at night and can’t get a full time job, they hate the bickering.
I want to give Tim a chance to respond, but I’ve been asking questions about the creation of full-time jobs since the 2014 state campaign and it depresses me. I don’t hear answers that convince me from either side.
WATTS:
We’ve got some answers. The reason I raised the Harvester gate is because there was a report released by the Western Community Legal Centre, West Justice, in my electorate yesterday, looking at the endemic exploitation of temporary migrants in Australia and the impact that has across our workplaces. When you exploit temporary migrant labourers that contributes to the record low wages growth that we have in Australia at the moment. There are things we can do about it, licensing of labour contractors is one thing, ensuring that franchisors can’t simply wash their hands of exploitation of temporary migrant labour by franchisees, which is what we’re seeing at the moment endemically across the country, and through tightening up the operation of our 457 visa arrangements, as Bill Shorten, Leader of the Opposition, has announced. They’re practical things we can do to increase fairness in the workplace.
EPSTEIN:
They’re not going to create jobs though are they?
WATTS:
Well they make higher quality jobs. Jobs and growth is all very good, but if we’re getting lower wages than we’ve ever had on statistical record then that’s a problem.
EPSTEIN:
I know you want to say something about Harvester, and feel free Scott Ryan, but just to address that point, it’s pretty clear migrant labourers are exploited to some degree, would it make a difference if we cracked down on that?
RYAN:
Just on the Harvester thing, you said I could say something, what Tim was talking about was a decision about wage levels. That was also based on 80 years of tariff protection quotas that drove up the cost of everything, from food to a dining table, for Australian families. It was something that Paul Keating and Bob Hawke unwound, so let’s not try and conflate the two. That was nothing to do with the idea of how our economy works to create jobs, it was purely about assigning the wage levels within it.
On the level of migrant workers, I mean, because of their vulnerability and failure on border protection, Labor’s tried a bit of a diversionary tactic this week.
Let’s go to 457s …
WATTS:
We’ve been talking about this for years.
RYAN:
457 visas reached 110,000 in 2013 under Labor. Bill Shorten himself issued record numbers, they’ve fallen since the Coalition came to office. It climbed from 68,000 in 2010, to 110,000 in 2013. Please, I’m happy to be held to my record, but let’s not pretend Labor isn’t trying to divert attention here.
EPSTEIN:
I’m happy for you to, if you wish, have the argument about who managed 457s better, that’s up to you, but what I want to ask you both to address is – and I’ll get to people’s calls in a moment, 1300 222 774 – is the 457 issue that important? How significant, if there are hundreds of thousands of people here on student visas, different form of visas, they can work, and then we’ve got the whole issue we began with, part time jobs versus full time jobs. Just a qualification, I’ll start with you Scott because you were making a point, but how important is the 457 in terms of creating opportunities for everyone?
RYAN:
It’s important that you have a skilled migration stream because they do fill gaps. It’s important that it not be rorted like it was five or six years ago. We’ve, just today, announced that we’ve reduced the period by which 457 holders, who have to be sponsored by an employer for a specific job, can stay. That used to be 30 days, Labor extended it to 90 days, we’ve brought it back to 60 days. That’s an important thing.
EPSTEIN:
Seeing as that’s the Government’s announcement today, why does that make a difference? What impact is that going to have?
RYAN:
The point about migrant workers is that, obviously, in a labour market, supply has an impact. When it comes to the broader issues that you mentioned, student workers and exploitation, a number of these things have actually come to light because of taskforces and operations the Government’s had in place …
EPSTEIN:
And because of the media.
RYAN:
And the media, and I was about to make that point. But a lot of the information has become available because Taskforce Cadena, the migrant worker taskforce led by Allan Fels, has actually created a culture where people are willing to speak to the media and attention has been brought to it.
EPSTEIN:
But just to clarify, if you reduce the number of days they’re allowed to stay on while looking for work, they will have to return if they don’t pick up more work.
RYAN:
Yes.
EPSTEIN:
So that’s the important part.
But just, Tim, how important are 457s? Is it going to make a difference to a tonne of the people listening who are looking for work if there is a tightening of those regulations?
WATTS:
Sure, and let’s just correct the record. So the number of 457 visas on the high level has fallen, in recent years, after we’ve come off the mining boom, on the back of changes by the Gillard government and the operation of the 457 visa arrangements. However, concerningly, they’ve increased in trades like bricklaying, chefs and café managers. Now if you can tell me it makes more sense for business to import a foreign worker to be a cook, rather than training an Australian to do it, I don’t think that makes sense.
RYAN:
I can tell you why, as the former minister, because at the same time Labor had record levels of people coming in, they took $1.2 billion out of apprenticeship support and 80,000 fewer apprentices started training.
WATTS:
Apprentices are not a strong thing for you to talk about here. But you’re right Raf, in that they’re only a part of the issue when we talk about exploitation of temporary workers, right.
EPSTEIN:
I will get onto how we can create more jobs because clearly we need to do that, but let’s have a chat to Paul who has called in from Mount Eliza.
Paul, tonnes of people want to have their say, so if you can, keep it short and sweet.
[CALLER – IMPORTANCE OF 457 VISA CLASS TO HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY]
WATTS:
They [students working more than 20 hours per week] are being exploited. This is perverting (sic) through our workplace at the moment, the exploitation of students, right. There was a study by the University of Sydney recently, found that 60 per cent of jobs advertised in Chinese language, to Chinese students, advertised below award rate.
EPSTEIN:
So more than half the jobs advertised?
WATTS:
And that means, if you’re a young Australian trying to get into that industry, you’re being forced to compete with people who are being paid less than the award rate. That is a scandal, we ought to be ashamed.
RYAN:
There is undoubtedly exploitation, but what Tim just said there to say all those students that your caller mentioned are being exploited, I’ve met a lot of these students in my former ministerial role, no, they are not all being exploited.
WATTS:
Sixty per cent.
RYAN:
You quoted one study about one language.
WATTS:
There are plenty of studies.
RYAN:
He was talking about huge numbers of people who work in hospitality, they should be only working 20 hours a week ,but a lot of them want to work more, and most businesses overwhelmingly comply. There are certain areas of our economy where we have problems, which is why we had the taskforce and why we’ve got the migrant worker taskforce.
EPSTEIN:
Let’s get a quick mention from Paul in Warranwood. Paul, what did you want to tell us?
[CALLER – JOBS IN RENEWABLE ENERGY INDUSTRY)Paul, let me put that to Scott Ryan, that’s very much directed at the Government.
RYAN:
Paul, any job created by increasing the cost of business inputs on other industries, they’re not sustainable jobs. We had this economic model here for 80 years – tariffs, protection, quotas and subsidies.
EPSTEIN:
But your Government signed up for Paris, you’ve got to steer the economy at least towards some renewable energy.
RYAN:
But what that gentleman was talking about, there is a way to do that. But this idea that we can create all these jobs by mandating that other business pays the massively increased electricity prices that Labor is proposing with a 50 per cent renewable target, which is not only unachievable, but could see a doubling of power prices.
EPSTEIN:
Tim, what’s a doubling of power prices on the cost of business?
WATTS: I’m still looking for the $100 roast that Barnaby Joyce promised us under Labor. What a load of nonsense.
EPSTEIN:
I don’t want to get too diverted by climate change, again, not because it is unimportant, it’s drastically important, but let’s see if we can focus on employment and jobs and whether or not our politicians are responding. We’ll get to more calls in a moment, we’ll get some traffic first.
[TRAFFIC REPORT]Joining me in the studio, still, Scott Ryan, he is one of Malcolm Turnbull’s ministers, part of the Coalition, he is the Special Minister of State, and Tim Watts, the ALP member for the seat of Gellibrand.
Can I ask you both to address whether or not you are really meeting people where they want to be met?
Neither party, I think, I don’t think either the Coalition or the ALP, actually won a seat on first preferences in South Australia and Tasmania at the last election – you had to rely on other parties – and you both had pretty close to your lowest proportion of the vote. I think Labor’s vote was worse in 2013 and I think, Scott, the Liberal Party’s vote, you have to go back to somewhere like 1946, you’re still at very low first preference votes. Isn’t that a direct commentary on no creation of full time jobs, not listening to people’s concerns, Tim Watts?
WATTS:
Well the trend that you describe Raf has been going for some time, it’s a secular (sic) trend across western democracies. You shouldn’t think it is anything unique to Australia. There are a lot of theories about what is driving that trend away from …
EPSTEIN:
A third of those people aren’t voting for you. That’s significant no?
WATTS:
I think everyone ought to be voting for the Labor Party, it’s significant in that respect, but this is not something that we should view as being unique to Australia. This is something we are seeing in all western democracies, right. I don’t think you can attribute that solely to that one issue although it is part of the structural changes that our economy and our society are experiencing. We are atomising as a society.
EPSTEIN:
Can I zoom in on the ALP because I don’t think the Labor Party won a seat on first preferences in South Australia, Tasmania, WA and Queensland. That’s a significant problem and surely – I think it’s more than half of your seats – isn’t that directly about people’s economic opportunities?
WATTS:
Well at the last election we picked up a large number of seats across the board.
EPSTEIN:
Sure, you didn’t get them on first preferences. Tell me if I’m right or wrong, is that people telling you that you aren’t addressing their concerns?
WATTS:
There’s a lot more competition in the political environment today than there was 30 years ago. The rise of these minor parties is a relatively new experience like that. But our proposition was preferred to the Government’s proposition across those seats that we picked up at the last election. Can we do better? Absolutely. That’s why we’re trying to talk about things like this Australian jobs package that Bill Shorten announced this week.
EPSTEIN:
Scott Ryan, I don’t want to get into the innards of the American election, but does that result, is it a wake-up call to a party like yours, if your primary vote, people putting number one in a box, is already significantly low, and what happened to Donald Trump happens, is it a message to you that you need to do more?
RYAN:
I think there is a message there, I think it is also to take into context and be realistic.
Firstly, Bill Clinton won in 1992 with 42 per cent of the vote. He didn’t break 50 per cent at either of his elections.
Secondly, the US election has a profound difference with that of Australia and that’s compulsory voting. In America, the polls usually get things wrong, usually by determining who votes, not which way they’ll vote. If anyone wants to Google David Plouffe, who was Barack Obama’s campaign manager at one point, his piece in The New York Times on Monday, it will outline how simply the city of Detroit and the fewer number of voters actually swung the state towards Trump, the fewer number of African American voters essentially.
But what are the lessons? I am a big believer in the benefits of open markets and free trade for peace, as well as prosperity. I think some people of my world view have forgotten that that debate was started and won over cheaper food for people on their dining table. The arguments occasionally got a touch esoteric and we need to make them real. That’s not about what I think is real, it is about addressing the aspirations, concerns, fears that people have in their lives. You talk about full time jobs, that is a very real one – are my kids going to get a job? And in America, the economic factor that really drove things was, ‘my kids aren’t going to do better than I am’ and I think that’s a point where society breaks. There are social issues too. I think you can’t dismiss them, the left tends to focus on the economics, some of my more conservative friends rely on purely the social – I think it’s both. There is a degree of authoritarianism that is coming into the safe space, trigger warnings, no platforming movement, I don’t want to hear an argument that disagrees with me – where people that have a different view on things like same sex marriage will be called a bigot. I think that’s also feeding some of the reaction that we’ve seen.
EPSTEIN:
I knew you’d open up all those issues with just a few minutes to go, but let’s go to Margaret in Glen Iris. Margaret, what did you want to say? Sorry, David, you’re in Kew, do you want to have your say?
Oh I think we’re having problems with calls so let me ask you, Tim Watts, is it cultural? One Nation proposes a ban on Muslims as a filter for our immigration intake. Half of the country supports that in an opinion poll. Does Labor need to listen to that?
WATTS:
I think we need to listen to the legitimate concerns of all those. I think Scott was right when he said the anxiety around people’s expectations about whether their kids will be able to live a better life than themselves is a big one. You can look at how workplaces impact on that, right. If you go back 40 years, even working class people in Australia were able to invest in their children’s development. They were able to spend time with their kids, have family dinners together, go to student-teacher interviews, go to the sports, go to the awards nights, things like that. In a world of casualisation, of part-time labour, of insecure work, that kind of family structure is being obliterated. That ability to invest in the next generation of kids is being undermined, that’s a really serious problem for, we’re particularly seeing it in America, but we’re increasingly seeing in Australia. It’s something we need to take from a policy perspective. So all of these moves to increase the flexibility of the work environment, they may well have served some in the business sector well, but they have not served working class Australians – that’s the reality of it. They certainly haven’t served their children well.
RYAN:
That’s not necessarily true. There are a lot of people who actually like flexible work …
WATTS:
Speak to my constituents Scott. Come to Sunshine.
RYAN:
Tim, I let you have your say. I know Sunshine pretty well mate, I grew up not far from there. The point here …
EPSTEIN: Scott’s got about 10 seconds.
RYAN:
There are a lot of people who like flexible work and to say this is all about the workplace is a very myopic view.
EPSTEIN:
We’ll need to leave it there. Scott Ryan, Tim Watts thank you very much.
(ENDS)